Occam's Razor Supports that Hans Niemann did not cheat against Magnus, or in OTB in general.

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Avatar of PawnTsunami
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Why wouldn't Magnus quit the tournament before he lost to Hans?

Why wouldn't Magnus resign the games against Hans before he lost to Hans?

The only difference in Magnus's actions before and after he decided to call out Hans was a fair and square loss when he had the white pieces.

The only variable between Magnus deciding to call out Hans or not was him losing. That's it.

Ask yourself if Magnus would have thrown a hissy fit against Hans if he would have beat him. If the answer is 'no', then that tells you everything you need to know. 

 

Again, your logic is flawed because you are stating with the conclusion and trying to backfill it.

Magnus played Hans in the FTX Crypto Cup 2 weeks prior to the Sinquefield Cup.  Hans beat him with the black pieces in that event (and proceeded to lose the next 3 games to lose the match).  If you look at that event, you'll see a very odd pattern:  Hans played 1 game in each match with a T3 score of 100% in 5 matches (including the one with Duda before the power went out).  So, why would Magnus not have an issue playing him in that event (where Magnus was one of the organizers) and yet have a problem with him 2 weeks later?  Did you ever stop to consider that?  Or is your knowledge of chess history start in September 2022?

Avatar of Optimissed
MorningGlory84 wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

I need to talk to some people here. After all, I'm given to magical thinking and this is the second time I've seen it mentioned, recently, as if it's something to be laughed at. OK, so I accept it's something to be laughed at but the only objection anyone should have against magical thinking would be because they assume it doesn't work and that therefore the magical thinker is retarded.

But what if it works?

I'm not laughing, there's just an irreconcilable difference between the scientific brain and the magical/superstitious thinker. For an excruciating illustration of this I recommend the video below. It does "work" evolutionarily. I think it's possible a majority of people are given to committed superstition which suggests it was selected for evolutionarily, probably because it has a survival advantage.

https://youtu.be/Bb5uuMskioo


I disagree with you. Why, for instance, do you suppose that magical thinking can't be approached in a scientific manner? It isn't irreconcilable but there tends to be a bias against reconciliation. I would say especially from logical-positivists.

I was a hidebound logical positivist at the age of 17. Around the age of 18, a girlfriend, whom I was in love with, persuaded me to deliberately try to think magically. I took a bit of persuading but eventually I agreed and I just did a couple of experiments which basically changed my life completely. I learned that we can use our minds in ways that some people don't believe is possible. And I learned or taught myself how to do it.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed wrote:
MorningGlory84 wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

I need to talk to some people here. After all, I'm given to magical thinking and this is the second time I've seen it mentioned, recently, as if it's something to be laughed at. OK, so I accept it's something to be laughed at but the only objection anyone should have against magical thinking would be because they assume it doesn't work and that therefore the magical thinker is retarded.

But what if it works?

I'm not laughing, there's just an irreconcilable difference between the scientific brain and the magical/superstitious thinker. For an excruciating illustration of this I recommend the video below. It does "work" evolutionarily. I think it's possible a majority of people are given to committed superstition which suggests it was selected for evolutionarily, probably because it has a survival advantage.

https://youtu.be/Bb5uuMskioo


I disagree with you. Why, for instance, do you suppose that magical thinking can't be approached in a scientific manner? It isn't irreconcilable but there tends to be a bias against reconciliation. I would say especially from logical-positivists.

I was a hidebound logical positivist at the age of 17. Around the age of 18, a girlfriend, whom I was in love with, persuaded me to deliberately try to think magically. I took a bit of persuading but eventually I agreed and I just did a couple of experiments which basically changed my life completely. I learned that we can use our minds in ways that some people don't believe is possible. And I learned or taught myself how to do it.

I have respect for your opinion and I can see you're intelligent. The comment you made here shows that. However, the surprising thing is that it isn't confirmation bias but our minds really are far more powerful than many people imagine.

I looked at the video so noticed it was about religion. I wouldn't want to waste an hour or whatever, at the moment, cos I'm busy and just relaxing doing some work. But it's not what I'm talking about. Belief content has no effect on outcomes, providing it's believed or at least there's no internal dissonance.

Avatar of Elroch

It is pleasing to think so.

This is the same reason many people believe many things.

Avatar of Optimissed

I think it depends on the person. From an early age I was only interested in truth. I distrusted literally everyone and everything. Worked it out for myself by first principles. So "being pleased to think something" is only possible if it''s true.

Avatar of Optimissed
Elroch wrote:

It is pleasing to think so.

This is the same reason many people believe many things.


Reflect on the quiet self-satisfaction you obtained from imparting that.

Avatar of CrusaderKing1
PawnTsunami wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Why wouldn't Magnus quit the tournament before he lost to Hans?

Why wouldn't Magnus resign the games against Hans before he lost to Hans?

The only difference in Magnus's actions before and after he decided to call out Hans was a fair and square loss when he had the white pieces.

The only variable between Magnus deciding to call out Hans or not was him losing. That's it.

Ask yourself if Magnus would have thrown a hissy fit against Hans if he would have beat him. If the answer is 'no', then that tells you everything you need to know. 

 

Again, your logic is flawed because you are stating with the conclusion and trying to backfill it.

Magnus played Hans in the FTX Crypto Cup 2 weeks prior to the Sinquefield Cup.  Hans beat him with the black pieces in that event (and proceeded to lose the next 3 games to lose the match).  If you look at that event, you'll see a very odd pattern:  Hans played 1 game in each match with a T3 score of 100% in 5 matches (including the one with Duda before the power went out).  So, why would Magnus not have an issue playing him in that event (where Magnus was one of the organizers) and yet have a problem with him 2 weeks later?  Did you ever stop to consider that?  Or is your knowledge of chess history start in September 2022?

Saying he cheated OTB isn't supported by any reputable individuals, especially not those highly trusted in the chess statistical world like Regan.

So if Magnus decided he's cheating based off of no evidence, or poorly perceived evidence in his mind, then that's his own undoing. 

Avatar of PawnTsunami
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Saying he cheated OTB isn't supported by any reputable individuals, especially not those highly trusted in the chess statistical world like Regan.

So if Magnus decided he's cheating based off of no evidence, or poorly perceived evidence in his mind, then that's his own undoing. 

You are either being disingenuous or daft, here.  Go back and reread what I wrote and see why your answer is asinine.

Avatar of Optimissed
CrusaderKing1 wrote:
PawnTsunami wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Why wouldn't Magnus quit the tournament before he lost to Hans?

Why wouldn't Magnus resign the games against Hans before he lost to Hans?

The only difference in Magnus's actions before and after he decided to call out Hans was a fair and square loss when he had the white pieces.

The only variable between Magnus deciding to call out Hans or not was him losing. That's it.

Ask yourself if Magnus would have thrown a hissy fit against Hans if he would have beat him. If the answer is 'no', then that tells you everything you need to know. 

 

Again, your logic is flawed because you are stating with the conclusion and trying to backfill it.

Magnus played Hans in the FTX Crypto Cup 2 weeks prior to the Sinquefield Cup.  Hans beat him with the black pieces in that event (and proceeded to lose the next 3 games to lose the match).  If you look at that event, you'll see a very odd pattern:  Hans played 1 game in each match with a T3 score of 100% in 5 matches (including the one with Duda before the power went out).  So, why would Magnus not have an issue playing him in that event (where Magnus was one of the organizers) and yet have a problem with him 2 weeks later?  Did you ever stop to consider that?  Or is your knowledge of chess history start in September 2022?

Saying he cheated OTB isn't supported by any reputable individuals, especially not those highly trusted in the chess statistical world like Regan.

So if Magnus decided he's cheating based off of no evidence, or poorly perceived evidence in his mind, then that's his own undoing. 

I don't think that PawnTsunami should speak the way he did. However, Regan being widely trusted and Regan being worthy of such widespread trust are different things. I have no first hand knowledge of Regan but he seems to be a self-promoter and there has been quite a number of comments critical of Regan's true expertise. I know I can't recommend "my instinct" to you but it tells me that in all likelihood, Regan's mission is to support the status quo at least for the time being, and to defuse accusations of cheating, which could have lasting repercussions. From what I've heard, Regan is not the expert he is claimed to be.

Avatar of PawnTsunami
Optimissed wrote:

I don't think that PawnTsunami should speak the way he did. However, Regan being widely trusted and Regan being worthy of such widespread trust are different things. I have no first hand knowledge of Regan but he seems to be a self-promoter and there has been quite a number of comments critical of Regan's true expertise. I know I can't recommend "my instinct" to you but it tells me that in all likelihood, Regan's mission is to support the status quo at least for the time being, and to defuse accusations of cheating, which could have lasting repercussions. From what I've heard, Regan is the expert he is claimed to be.

For the record, I made no mention of Regan, his analysis, nor his expertise in that comment.  It was entirely pointing out that analyzing Magnus' behavior and coming to the conclusion that he was simply upset he lost with White is a flawed conclusion.

Avatar of Optimissed

Agreed. There should be no over-rising reason to doubt his honesty.

Avatar of Optimissed

Some people just don't like him, maybe.

Avatar of idilis

Avatar of Optimissed

ABOUT a couple of years ago my son gave me an old fashioned double sided razor that takes standard blades. It came with one razor blade. I don't shave a lot but must have used it 40 times and only changed the blade last week.

Avatar of idilis
Optimissed wrote:

ABOUT a couple of years ago my son gave me an old fashioned double sided razor that takes standard blades. It came with one razor blade. I don't shave a lot but must have used it 40 times and only changed the blade last week.

Never tried those. Hate shaving, so I do it twice a week. Gillette mach3.  Was Sensor before but they didn't seem to sell the blades anymore. It's a scam.

Avatar of Optimissed

I used a mach three for years but I've reverted to a real razor and they're just far better but you have to be very careful.

Avatar of FIRESTORMTHIEF

Shaving your beard is fun.

Avatar of FIRESTORMTHIEF
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

The definition according to wikipedia is "a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities."

Hans has been playing well, beating players like Magnus and Aronian in important tournaments, but also losing to players like Fabiano. Just recently he lost against Fabiano with the white pieces.

This dude is not cheating OTB.

The witch hunt only exists because Magnus lost a game vs. Hans with the white pieces and now he's going out way to ruin his chess career because of a bruised ego.

That's the simplest and most logical explanation. Don't overcomplicate things.

And I say this as a master degree chemist and physician, often times the most simplest explanation is the most realistic.

"when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras".

can you explain his new 100 million dollar lawsuit case against carlsen?

that's upright crazy

I see greed as well as other bad things

Avatar of CrusaderKing1
FIRESTORMTHIEF wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

The definition according to wikipedia is "a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities."

Hans has been playing well, beating players like Magnus and Aronian in important tournaments, but also losing to players like Fabiano. Just recently he lost against Fabiano with the white pieces.

This dude is not cheating OTB.

The witch hunt only exists because Magnus lost a game vs. Hans with the white pieces and now he's going out way to ruin his chess career because of a bruised ego.

That's the simplest and most logical explanation. Don't overcomplicate things.

And I say this as a master degree chemist and physician, often times the most simplest explanation is the most realistic.

"when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras".

can you explain his new 100 million dollar lawsuit case against carlsen?

that's upright crazy

I see greed as well as other bad things

If Hans didn't cheat OTB, which is seems like its the most likely case, then there were extremely questionable unlawful actions by many individuals exclaiming he cheated based on no evidence. These accusations hurt his income, opportunity costs, etc....I am not a lawyer. 

Usually when defamation really becomes illegal defamation, is when it hurts someones career. I actually think he has a case against Magnus, Hikaru, and other individuals who have somewhat defamed.

But I actually think his case against chess.com is probably a loss. Chess.com had evidence of its claims, and it avoided saying Hans cheated OTB.

But the claims against Magnus and Hikaru seem much more reasonable. 

 

Avatar of MorningGlory84
FIRESTORMTHIEF wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

The definition according to wikipedia is "a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities."

Hans has been playing well, beating players like Magnus and Aronian in important tournaments, but also losing to players like Fabiano. Just recently he lost against Fabiano with the white pieces.

This dude is not cheating OTB.

The witch hunt only exists because Magnus lost a game vs. Hans with the white pieces and now he's going out way to ruin his chess career because of a bruised ego.

That's the simplest and most logical explanation. Don't overcomplicate things.

And I say this as a master degree chemist and physician, often times the most simplest explanation is the most realistic.

"when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras".

can you explain his new 100 million dollar lawsuit case against carlsen?

that's upright crazy

I see greed as well as other bad things

It's a frivolous lawsuit and form of posturing designed to misdirect, no doubt egged on by ambulance chasing lawyers who are rife in America's hysterically litigious society.

The parallels between this and the Lance Armstrong situation are striking. I strongly suspect Niemann has personality disorders such as grandiose narcissism and sociopathy.

Carlsen is domiciled in Norway so even if this symbolic lawsuit isn't dismissed on first hearing, Carlsen has no obligation to respond to it.