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Opponent copies your moves in daily chess tournament

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ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
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Jan 10, 2014
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#101
pelly13 wrote:

Thriller : That doesn't work either. He simply does the same. Whatever time you take , he will do too . You are basically playing 1 game , against yourself. It is a symmetrical situation , unless there is a difference in vacation time.

The problem is : You want him to move first in his White-game , where he won't be able to copy your move ( because you haven't moved in the other game yet). It is only the clock that can force him to do his move.

This is not totally true:

Think about it - Let's say you have already played 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 Bb5, and he has done the same.  In one of the two games, it's his move, and since you played Bb5 before he did, the game where it's his move there is a SHORTER amount of time left on the clock.  It may only be 4 minutes, but it's shorter.

Think about it, if I made the move 3.Bb5 at 10:34 today, and he "copied" me at 10:38 today, I have until 10:38 tomorrow, he has until 10:34 tomorrow.  What if I wait until 10:36 to make my move, where I have 2 minutes left on the clock?

He better have made his move already.  If he played 3...a6, I play 3...Nf6.  If he didn't play 3...a6, I play 3...a6.

If he let his clock run out, I play whatever I feel like at that time!

waffllemaster
waffllemaster
Jan 10, 2014
0
#102
TheGrobe wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

If you take them to the very last minute on Game A, they just have to take you to the very last minute on game B when it's their turn and they've unwound any advantage you might have gained.

I'm saying in every state where each player has 1 running clock, the times can be defined by [my time remaining] and [his time - time it took him to relay] and he will always have less time as he waits for my next input.

I don't understand when they will be able to take me to the very last minute.  I'm never waiting on their input.  Furthermore I never have both my clock's running.  At every point I do have a clock running, they have a clock running that has less time.

As I said, in order to break the chain you need to get the clocks out of synch by more than the amount of time alotted for a single move, something they can prevent you from doing.

Chess.com measures it down to the minute though right?  As long as the relay takes longer than a minute, it's enough of a difference to force them to lose time waiting on your next move.

waffllemaster
waffllemaster
Jan 10, 2014
0
#103
ThrillerFan wrote:
pelly13 wrote:

Thriller : That doesn't work either. He simply does the same. Whatever time you take , he will do too . You are basically playing 1 game , against yourself. It is a symmetrical situation , unless there is a difference in vacation time.

The problem is : You want him to move first in his White-game , where he won't be able to copy your move ( because you haven't moved in the other game yet). It is only the clock that can force him to do his move.

This is not totally true:

Think about it - Let's say you have already played 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 Bb5, and he has done the same.  In one of the two games, it's his move, and since you played Bb5 before he did, the game where it's his move there is a SHORTER amount of time left on the clock.  It may only be 4 minutes, but it's shorter.

Think about it, if I made the move 3.Bb5 at 10:34 today, and he "copied" me at 10:38 today, I have until 10:38 tomorrow, he has until 10:34 tomorrow.  What if I wait until 10:36 to make my move, where I have 2 minutes left on the clock?

He better have made his move already.  If he played 3...a6, I play 3...Nf6.  If he didn't play 3...a6, I play 3...a6.

If he let his clock run out, I play whatever I feel like at that time!

This is what I'm saying.

robthepek
robthepek
Jan 10, 2014
0
#104
TurboFish wrote:

Copying moves from other games in progress is perfectly legal, even copying from your opponent's games.  Duplicate games happen often between in main-line openings at OTB tournaments where the players can easily observe each other's games in progress.  There is no rule prohibiting players from looking at or getting ideas from the live tournament games visible within the playing hall.  If someone claims otherwise, please point to your source.

But there is a simple method to prevent this strategy in timed games, especially with time controls that set a fixed maximum time per move.  Let's say Alice and Bob are playing 2 simultaneous games, each player having white in one game, and black in the other.  Bob wants to use the copy-cat strategy, so he waits for Alice to play her white move

Game 1:  Alice 1.e4

Bob immediately plays the same move in his game as white

Game 2:  Bob 1.e4

So far, so good.  But Bob's clock in his game as black (Game 1) has been ticking longer than Alice's clock in her game as black (Game 2), so if Alice just waits long enough, Bob must make his first move as black before Alice must make her first move as black, otherwise Bob loses on time.  Once Bob makes his first move as black,

Game 1:  Alice 1.e4, Bob 1...e5

Alice quickly makes a different move in her game as black (having previously decided on at least 2 decent candidate moves while waiting for Bob to move).

Game 2:  Bob 1.e4, Alice 1...c5

Each player risks losing on time by waiting until the last few seconds, but the point is that the copy-cat strategy can be prevented.  If anyone wants to challenge my anti-copy-cat strategy, just challenge me to 2 unrated games.

You are not accepting challenges at this time.

ActiveKing
ActiveKing
Jan 10, 2014
0
#105
LuftWaffles wrote:

...he will start running the risk of copying the moves of computer abusers, and get banned for cheating :-) Now that would be ironic.

LOL

PsYcHo_ChEsS
PsYcHo_ChEsS
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Jan 10, 2014
0
#106

Well, I have read every bit of this thread, and I will say that the "solution" proposed by some is pretty poor.

First of all, waiting till the very end of a game to make a move is always dangerous, what if you go to your game and discover the site is down, or your internet connection has gone down?

And second, the opponent can start using vacation time to stall, forcing you to also use vacation time. So for this situation you might have to burn through a good deal of vacation time (if not all of it) and be OCD about when you make your moves, just to get out of the symetrical situation.

This should not be tolerated (when it can be proven) on this site. 

DrFrank124c
DrFrank124c
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Jan 10, 2014
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#107

The solution is to figure out moves that benefit your side but not his. 

Scottrf
Scottrf
Jan 10, 2014
0
#108
DrFrank124c wrote:

The solution is to figure out moves that benefit your side but not his. 


In the same position? Great idea...

woton
woton
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Jan 10, 2014
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#109

After brainstorming this problem for most of the day, I've decided that if anyone ever copy cats my moves in two simultaneous games, I will repeat the position three times and take the draw.  Trying to outwit them is too difficult for a half wit like me.

TurboFish
TurboFish
Jan 10, 2014
0
#110
robthepek wrote:

You are not accepting challenges at this time.

I apologize, I forgot that my settings didn't allow challenges to come through. Contact me by private message, and if you still want to play some unrated games with me to test my anti-copy-cat proposal, I will send you a challenge.

Bardu
Bardu
Jan 10, 2014
0
#111

This is laughably terrible. If this is not cheating, it should be. If it is, Chess.com needs to be able to handle this situation while the game is still in progress.

My list of solutions:

  • Don't play in tournaments with simultaneous games.
  • Play live chess instead of correspondence.
  • Play on a site where people are more mature.
theflyingtinman
theflyingtinman
Jan 10, 2014
0
#112
DrFrank124c wrote:

The solution is to figure out moves that benefit your side but not his. 

There is no "Your side" and "His side"; The OP is essentially playing a single game against himself, but spread over two boards, with the opponent acting only as an intermediary between the boards ... so there are only two possible outcomes: The OP will win one board and lose the other - or will draw the games on both boards. If the OP is rated significantly higher than the opponent then the opponent "wins" (on points) in either case.

JMB2010
GM JMB2010
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Jan 10, 2014
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#113

I would think this is cheating, but let us remember that IG wasn't banned, he closed his account, so I am not so sure.

Scottrf
Scottrf
Jan 10, 2014
0
#114
JMB2010 wrote:

I would think this is cheating, but let us remember that IG wasn't banned, he closed his account, so I am not so sure.

Are you basing that on the lack of a cheater symbol? Because only engine cheating earns you that symbol.

phinneas
phinneas
Jan 10, 2014
0
#115

2 test games UNRATED (hey mr. Staff - we are not cheating guys!!!!):

http://www.chess.com/echess/game?id=82810066 (After 1. e4, e5; 2. Nf3, I don't know what to play because my opponent must play first in another game)
But my time will finish first!! 

http://www.chess.com/echess/game?id=82810172

TurboFish
TurboFish
Jan 10, 2014
0
#116

The solution is simple: never start 2 games at the same time, and always wait for all opponents in active older games to move (if it is thier turn), before you start a new game .  Then you are immune to copy-cats since you can always wait them out, forcing them to move first, allowing you to deivate your game as black at the move of your choice, even if you have no vacation time.  Once your game as black has deviated, you now have 2 different games.

JMB2010
GM JMB2010
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Jan 10, 2014
0
#117

Actually Scott, believe it or not, I am taking his word for it on this one.

TurboFish
TurboFish
Jan 10, 2014
0
#118
theflyingtinman wrote:
DrFrank124c wrote:

The solution is to figure out moves that benefit your side but not his. 

There is no "Your side" and "His side"; The OP is essentially playing a single game against himself, but spread over two boards, with the opponent acting only as an intermediary between the boards ... so there are only two possible outcomes: The OP will win one board and lose the other - or will draw the games on both boards. If the OP is rated significantly higher than the opponent then the opponent "wins" (on points) in either case.

I applaud you, you are clear and concise.

phinneas
phinneas
Jan 10, 2014
0
#119

#123

Now I want to play but I can't!!  My opponent didnt answer yet and my time will get over before...

So, there is a solution, friends...

steve_bute
steve_bute
Jan 10, 2014
0
#120
tubebender wrote:

Just like "Occam`s razor," the simplest answer is often the most elegant solution to a problem.

Are you sure that's what Ockham's rule is? I very much doubt that 'elegance' was the principle.