Promoting to....A PAWN ? Can it Help ? - Chess Forums - Page 11

Nov 8, 2017

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#201

A few days ago in post #199 I wrote that it's "not bloody likely" that it'd be possible to construct a position in which the only way to win is to "promote" to a P, if such a move were legal. (This is a much harder task than creating a position where a "non-promotion" move is the only way to salvage a draw, examples of which have already been shown in this thread.) However, I couldn't resist the challenge and now have actually composed such a position!

The BQ threatens mates on a8 and f7, severely limiting White's options. 1.exf8(Q) or 1.exf8(R) pins the N and stalemates Black immediately. 1.exf8(B) guards g7 and allows Black to deflect the f5-N with 1...Ne7+ forcing 2.Nxe7 or Bxe7 stalemate. 1.exf8(N) guards h7 and means Black can remove the f6-N with 1...Nxf6+ forcing 2.gxf6 stalemate. If 1.e8(Q), Black still draws with 1...Qxf7+ 2.Qxf7 Ne7+ 3.Nxe7 stalemate. Stockfish confirms that other white moves like 1.Nxd6? actually loses.

Now if non-promoting were legal, then 1.exf8(P)!! wins because none of the stalemates would work. 1...Ne7+ 2.Nxe7 Kg7, or 1...Nxf6+ 2.gxf6 Kh7, or 1...Nh6 2.Nxh6 Kg7. Even after 1...Nxf6+ 2.gxf6, White is still a piece ahead and so wins the ending easily.

eric0022

Nov 8, 2017

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#202

Rocky64 wrote:

A few days ago in post #199 I wrote that it's "not bloody likely" that it'd be possible to construct a position in which the only way to win is to "promote" to a P, if such a move were legal. (This is a much harder task than creating a position where a "non-promotion" move is the only way to salvage a draw, examples of which have already been shown in this thread.) However, I couldn't resist the challenge and now have actually composed such a position!

The BQ threatens mates on a8 and f7, severely limiting White's options. 1.exf8(Q) or 1.exf8(R) pins the N and stalemates Black immediately. 1.exf8(B) guards g7 and allows Black to deflect the f5-N with 1...Ne7+ forcing 2.Nxe7 or Bxe7 stalemate. 1.exf8(N) guards h7 and means Black can remove the f6-N with 1...Nxf6+ forcing 2.gxf6 stalemate. If 1.e8(Q), Black still draws with 1...Qxf7+ 2.Qxf7 Ne7+ 3.Nxe7 stalemate. Stockfish confirms that other white moves like 1.Nxd6? actually loses.

Now if non-promoting were legal, then 1.exf8(P)!! wins because none of the stalemates would work. 1...Ne7+ 2.Nxe7 Kg7, or 1...Nxf6+ 2.gxf6 Kh7, or 1...Nh6 2.Nxh6 Kg7. Even after 1...Nxf6+ 2.gxf6, White is still a piece ahead and so wins the ending easily.

I misread the first move as 1. e8=P which fails to 1...Qxf7#.

The_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 7, 2017

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#203

I wanna have AlphaZero wired for non-promo pawn chess in a number of positions to see if it can be beneficial.

The_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 8, 2017

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#204

Okay. Think about it. Isn't that the intent of the game ?....to disrupt your opponents harmony ?

The_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 8, 2017

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#205

I say get AZ's AI capabilities to beta this concept out.

mgx9600

Dec 8, 2017

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#206

The_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

I cannot find a condition where promoting to a pawn would actually help a player.

I don't think it is legal in standard chess; you must promote to knight,rook,bishop, or queen according to the rules.

However, who says you can't make up your own rules?

I used to think you must promote to a captured chessman (or leave it as a pawn until something of yours is captured); OTB wiithout extra chessmen seems intuitive. It made the game just a sfun (playing with different rules).

Nordlandia

Dec 8, 2017

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#207

Steinitz proposed it over 150 years ago with the intent of stalemate. It servers no other purpose than that.

The_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 8, 2017

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#208

That's unproven. There may be a position....

Nordlandia

Dec 9, 2017

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#209

The_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

That's unproven. There may be a position....

Like what?

The_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 9, 2017

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#210

U may wanna go back to the examples in this thread. U know keep up & not ask dum-dum questions.

MergedZamasu

Dec 9, 2017

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#211

I fail to understand how the position would even change if a pawn was promoted to a pawn. If anything, tempo would be lost. But I did not check the original message. So I will do so.

MergedZamasu

Dec 9, 2017

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#212

And if a piece some how demoted into a pawn, that would be a disadvantage unless that pawn can directly give the player an advantage to the position. Also if the pawn makes it to the eithgh rank and stays/promotes to a pawn, will it be allowed to move back, because unless otherwise indicated, the rules are that pawns move foreward and not backwards.

The_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 9, 2017

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#213

demoted ?....it stays the same.

Making it too complicated. It just stays a pawn & that's it. It becomes permanently dormant.

RALRAL3333

Dec 9, 2017

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#214

that would waste a move right? You get it to the eighth rank and then you have to spend another move just to promote it

ZlyphrrPlayz

Dec 11, 2017

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#215

LawAndOrderKing wrote:

If you promote to a pawn and it stays there, it would disrupt the harmony in your opponent's position. For example rooks on the eight rank wouldn't be connected anymore unless that promoted pawn is not protected by one of your pieces.

Just promote to a queen and it disturbs opponents pieces if protects like if you promote to pawn...

ZlyphrrPlayz

Dec 11, 2017

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#216

I think it is quite useful! Promote to a pawn, after if captured, keep checking with rook until it is captured and draw!

ZlyphrrPlayz

Dec 11, 2017

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#217

unless your're saying you have to promote again and ai=gain until queen or bishop or roo or knight

RealAnishGiri

Dec 11, 2017

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#218

And the pawn can't do anything coz they r against the wall

ZlyphrrPlayz

Dec 11, 2017

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#219

exactly so it would be a stale mate!

The_Ghostess_Lola

Dec 12, 2017

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#220

....excellent example ZP !....TY....Lola