Pros and cons of chess

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RC_Woods

A good start for reading would be Jaegwon Kim's introductionary "Philosophy of Mind"

The fact that a 'cow' differs ontologically from 'the mental' (I agree cow's are easier to draw) does not mean the sophist tactic I described wouldn't work. I'm not saying you would have used it, but would not have been surprised if it was a friendly set up. Usually trying to define something requires no guts, but against a sophist it could equate with verbal suicide.

When it comes to 'Supervene' I am referring to the Mind-Body Supervenience theses (it is treated in the book I suggested).

It basically means mental events have a basis in physical events. Since most contemporary philosophers accept ontological physicalism (there is nothing but bits and pieces of matter in spacetime), the idea doesn't strike me as odd. If there is something like the mental, then it should have a basis in the physical, because where else are we going to be looking. (I am no fan of dualism).

With regard to my time machine analogy lacking, I disagree. I did not use it to imply 'mentality' and 'time machines' are the same. I used it to say that you don't have to fully understand something (mentality or time, for that matter Laughing) to speculate about the growth of our understanding / technical prowess related to it. 

Then last but not least your question: "Physical properties changing into...what?"

I would be surprised if you didn't like the early Witgenstein. If you are not familiar with it, you should check the wikipage for his tractato logico philosophico. I also agree that a lot of 'philosophy' may be nonsense as long as it is not connected to concrete facts in reality. 

But with that being said, and acknowledging that properly defining mentality is not easy and to some extent theory related, I do not think it is unsurmountable to the degree that any statement regarding it must be nonsensical from the word go.

We may at some point be able to create a physical system with mentality. The technology to create something like that, I suppose, is very far out of reach. There are also many more difficulties in framing what we are trying to create, and perhaps greater ones still in testing if we succeeded. (read up on the fun zombie problem)

The basic point, though, is that many philosophers would be surprised if a machine that is functionally identical to a brain would not have a similar mental capacity. And that is what Elroch is getting at.

The whole idea that it should be possible in general to create physical objects with mental capacity isn't terribly controversial. The fact that the last word hasn't been said about what mentality is exactly and the fact that the technology is way insufficient doesn't make it philosophically irrelevant.

I like Larry Niven and Peter F. Hamilton best. I wouldn't be surprised if you liked them too. Smile

 

chessroboto
RoboFreak wrote:

And yes, it's obsessive, consumes my free time but... going to a pub and make me drunk all day is better? or smoking like a furnal? or watching p0rn all day? are these last three obsessive? Which is the good obsession to have? Is anyone here not having obsessions of all sorts?


Everyone has their choice on how they want to spend their free time, and in some cases, make time for what they want to do. We do what we choose because it entertains, replenishes, relaxes or enriches us.

I have yet to hear of a life story of someone who has ruined or destroyed one's life due to "too much" chess as we have always heard of drug addiction. (Of course, when chess is an avenue for gambling, then it becomes a different symptom.)

Which brings me back to the original post of chess CONs for the average casual player: Are the original points still valid as points under CONs?

jac

Chess freezes  time

RoboFreak
chessroboto wrote:
RoboFreak wrote:

And yes, it's obsessive, consumes my free time but... going to a pub and make me drunk all day is better? or smoking like a furnal? or watching p0rn all day? are these last three obsessive? Which is the good obsession to have? Is anyone here not having obsessions of all sorts?


Everyone has their choice on how they want to spend their free time, and in some cases, make time for what they want to do. We do what we choose because it entertains, replenishes, relaxes or enriches us.

I have yet to hear of a life story of someone who has ruined or destroyed one's life due to "too much" chess as we have always heard of drug addiction. (Of course, when chess is an avenue for gambling, then it becomes a different symptom.)

Which brings me back to the original post of chess CONs for the average casual player: Are the original points still valid as points under CONs?


correct point. if games as obsession will bring along money losing then we have a different symptom... now i am paying my internet and electrical power for the laptop to be here...not too much if we compare to gambling loosing...i guess...i never gambled before for real money (but i played Monopoly :)) )

trysts

Your insistance that calling for someone to define their terms is somehow tactical sophistry is peurile. The reason why I would say 'have some guts and define your terms', is because people defer to reference sources, or other people's thoughts on a matter, without forming their own thoughts. Deferring to a dictionary for recondite terms like "intelligence", a term which begs for the participation of the user for it's meaning, shows only that that person refuses to acknowledge the subjectivity of the term, and hopes you don't notice. It's the difference between mimmick(no responsibilty) and uniqueness(full responsibility).

I will be reading Kim's theory throughout the day, because I like reading philosophy. But you seem to have some inside knowledge of who is relevant, and what philosophers agree upon ("since most contemporary philosophers accept ontological physicalism..."), I imagine tactical sophistry is not far removed from the place you reside.

RoJac

I can't help but wonder if these philosophers who accepted "ontological physicalism" have had time to reconsider their views in light of recent quantum physics insights. 

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the subject, but I understand that at a quantum level all our previous assumptions of reality are being systematically questioned to the point that even how many dimensions our reality consists of is questionable. 

Also this relates somewhat to the discussion about what is consciousness. I'm not going to try to explain this relation because I don't feel I understand it well enough. This man explains it interestingly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s42mrdhKwRA

RoboFreak
RoJac wrote:

I can't help but wonder if these philosophers who accepted "ontological physicalism" have had time to reconsider their views in light of recent quantum physics insights. 

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the subject, but I understand that at a quantum level all our previous assumptions of reality are being systematically questioned to the point that even how many dimensions our reality consists of is questionable. 

Also this relates somewhat to the discussion about what is consciousness. I'm not going to try to explain this relation because I don't feel I understand it well enough. This man explains it interestingly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s42mrdhKwRA


Gisus Craist you philosophers ar taking it too far from reality...

chessroboto

Now I'm joining the A.I. discussion.

Without quoting philosophy greats and papers, I noticed that the discussion on consciousness and intelligence when checked against computer programs and robots or machinations still focuses on how humans perceive themselves.

Are you people arguing if computers and robots have reached the same level as humans in terms of human consciousness and human intelligence? (I have to specify "human" to avoid the discussions on animal and insect instincts.) Or are you discussing the gauges and levels to be able to say that something has reached human consciousness and human intelligence?

trysts
chessroboto wrote:

Now I'm joining the A.I. discussion.

Without quoting philosophy greats and papers, I noticed that the discussion on consciousness and intelligence when checked against computer programs and robots or machinations still focuses on how humans perceive themselves.

Are you people arguing if computers and robots have reached the same level as humans in terms of human consciousness and human intelligence? (I have to specify "human" to avoid the discussions on animal and insect instincts.) Or are you discussing the gauges and levels to be able to say that something has reached human consciousness and human intelligence?


Define "reached"? I'm still on computers(or robots) not being "self-aware", not being able to have mental activity, nor, a private mental life.

RoboFreak
chessroboto wrote:

Now I'm joining the A.I. discussion.

Without quoting philosophy greats and papers, I noticed that the discussion on consciousness and intelligence when checked against computer programs and robots or machinations still focuses on how humans perceive themselves.

Are you people arguing if computers and robots have reached the same level as humans in terms of human consciousness and human intelligence? (I have to specify "human" to avoid the discussions on animal and insect instincts.) Or are you discussing the gauges and levels to be able to say that something has reached human consciousness and human intelligence?


A.I. has it's limits I think. Learning capacity of the robots/computers have their limits equal to human perception about the world and environment. People differ because their capacity to be unpredictable, dynamic and independent.

Elroch

Computers are stupendously more intelligent than humans at certain tasks (such as some constrained problem solving)  (unless we choose to change the definition of intelligent in response to this having happened). At other tasks (such as (1) interpreting spoken language, (2) identifying the objects in photographs, etc.) they used to be very stupid, but are catching up or have caught up. Robots have recently become able to balance dynamically on two legs as well as humans and navigate extremely complex terrain with skill probably somewhere between that of a human and a mountain goat, and can drive cars on public roads (even around town with all the hazards) rather more safely than humans (it takes the power of about 10 PCs and some fancy interfaces and sensory apparatus).

What hasn't been achieved yet is a computer which builds a functional picture of the world which it perceives through its interfaces (what we call senses), and chooses to make objectives, determine how to achieve them, and continually modify its behaviour in a way which is not in any way predetermined. But I see no reason why this cannot be achieved with the same level of complexity and sophistication as a human achieves. As well as this being somewhat demanding, the application of computers so far has entirely been based on them performing specific tasks for us, so there has been little effort on creating a computer which is self-serving and not subservient to the extreme.

Looking at issues of whether such machines are alive, conscious, or a danger to humans is treading well-trodden ground, as science fiction from Karel Čapek to Isaac Asimov and beyond has explored the possibilities and the moral and philosophical issues in great detail a long time ago.

RoboFreak
Elroch wrote:

Computers are stupendously more intelligent than humans at certain tasks (such as some constrained problem solving)  (unless we choose to change the definition of intelligent in response to this having happened). At other tasks (such as (1) interpreting spoken language, (2) identifying the objects in photographs, etc.) they used to be very stupid, but are catching up or have caught up. Robots have recently become able to balance dynamically on two legs as well as humans and navigate extremely complex terrain with skill probably somewhere between that of a human and a mountain goat, and can drive cars on public roads (even around town with all the hazards) rather more safely than humans (it takes the power of about 10 PCs and some fancy interfaces and sensory apparatus).

What hasn't been achieved yet is a computer which builds a functional picture of the world which it perceives through its interfaces (what we call senses), and chooses to make objectives, determine how to achieve them, and continually modify its behaviour in a way which is not in any way predetermined. But I see no reason why this cannot be achieved with the same level of complexity and sophistication as a human achieves. As well as this being somewhat demanding, the application of computers so far has entirely been based on them performing specific tasks for us, so there has been little effort on creating a computer which is self-serving and not subservient to the extreme.

Looking at issues of whether such machines are alive, conscious, or a danger to humans is treading well-trodden ground, as science fiction from Karel Čapek to Isaac Asimov and beyond has explored the possibilities and the moral and philosophical issues in great detail a long time ago.


So we make the discussin to go from psychology to robotics on matter of chess plus and minuses :)) Cool thing.

odessian

I think the idea that machines are "conscious" is ridiculous.

RoboFreak
odessian wrote:

I think the idea that machines are "conscious" is ridiculous.


I think not ridiculous but limited by physical matters...

odessian

first of all I am not convinced that consciousness is a product of "physical matters" at all.

RoboFreak

you are consciousness because you are alive in a physical world and because you interact with the world trough senses; senses give you the chance to experience and you learn how and why...Robots are like childrens in their early age, they are consciousness but they don't know what is happening to them in this world...I think...

RoboFreak
RoboFreak wrote:

you are consciousness because you are alive in a physical world and because you interact with the world trough senses; senses give you the chance to experience and you learn how and why...Robots are like childrens in their early age, they are consciousness but they don't know what is happening to them in this world...I think...


Wrong ideas:

Robots are purely material things, and consciousness requires immaterial mind-stuff. (Old-fashioned dualism)

Robots are inorganic (by definition), and consciousness can exist only in an organic brain.

Robots are artifacts, and consciousness abhors an artifact; only something natural, born not manufactured, could exhibit genuine consciousness.

Please read this article to understand the idea of robot consciousness:

http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/concrobt.htm

trysts
RoboFreak wrote:

Robots are like childrens in their early age,


Actually, robots are like automobiles.

RoboFreak

no, an automobile cannot be autonomous at the level of the control system; at the levelof energetical autonomy the case is even - they work based on the gas level :). Robots act at different levels: you find robots that require human interraction and also robots that can anipulate objects in a closed room using 4 optical distance sensors, one ultrasonic sensor to create a map of the environment and a video camera that acts as a sensor.

Elroch
odessian wrote:

I think the idea that machines are "conscious" is ridiculous.


There is a long tradition of people thinking new ideas (or even ideas that are not new, but not widely accepted) are ridiculous. I leave everyone to select their own favourites from the huge number of examples.

Why would one believe a machine as sophisticated in its structure and behaviour as a human would not be conscious? Just preconceptions, in my opinion.

If you do not believe that consciousness is an attribute of your physical self, you must believe that there is something non-physical (what is that?) which holds the consciousness and somehow interfaces to the physical self, and especially to parts of the brain and especially the part of the brain that is know to be associated with higher consciousness. Presumably this non-physical something must have the ability to trigger the patterns in the brain that are associated with consciousness, or it seems entirely superfluous (for one thing, it could have no influence on the thoughts which are patterns in our brains).

I have to admit that at this point it is me who thinks that this seems absurd, and totally unnecessary. The only reason to believe that consciousness is something non-physical is because it is something that is very personal to us and "higher" than physical matter. Once you realise that the fact that the physical brain is perceiving itself makes this a unique thing from our point of view, it should not seem ridiculous at all.

It is possible that at some point in the not too distant future, it will be possible to observe the operation of the cells in the brain with a level of precision that would be able to determine if there is any way in which they are acting as if they were not merely electrons and nuclei obeying the laws of physics. But such an experiment would seem as absurd to most scientists as looking for ghosts.