Radio help

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KasKarKramNiPovSky

The 1945 match was an official one between the USA and USSR, not between 2 clubs. Maybe this is what he means by International.

minichess

I'll have to update my article on radio and wireless chess and fix all the confusing terms or define them better.  I also wrote on telegraphs and cable matches.  An interesting time before the Internet.

- Bill Wall

batgirl
alleenkatze wrote:

 

https://chess24.com/en/read/news/70th-anniversary-of-the-usa-vs-ussr-radio-match

In essence, wireless (radio) telegraphy as discussed earlier. 

Thanks for the video link.

batgirl
minichess wrote:

I'll have to update my article on radio and wireless chess and fix all the confusing terms or define them better.  I also wrote on telegraphs and cable matches.  An interesting time before the Internet.

- Bill Wall

What a clever new name.

Mr. Wall,  you wrote in your radio page that the 1945 USA vs USSR Match was the first international radio match.  Horowitz came up with an earlier match.  See "Chess Review" Feb. 1946,  p.8.

batgirl
KasKarKramNiPovSky wrote:

The 1945 match was an official one between the USA and USSR, not between 2 clubs. Maybe this is what he means by International.

I think post #3 gave a most reasonable explanation.  Even a match between two clubs or organizations could be official.    

alleenkatze
minichess wrote:

I'll have to update my article on radio and wireless chess and fix all the confusing terms or define them better.  I also wrote on telegraphs and cable matches.  An interesting time before the Internet.

- Bill Wall

 

I think your articles are accurate in using the terms telegraph, cable and radio, but a distinction between radiotelegraphy or radiotelephony might be needed.    Thanks.

 

Farnel

For the record, in 1927, Australia was not a dominion of the UK. The Commonwealth of Australia was federated in 1901 when the various British colonies agreed to form the Commonwealth of Australia, and take its place in the world as an independent nation. At that time it ceased to be a loose collection of British colonies and became the independent nation that it remains to this day.

So by 1927, the notion that Australia was merely "semi-independent polities under the British Crown" had ceased to be true some 26 years earlier, and Australia was indeed a (still new but now) independent nation. Any such match with Australia would definitely have been an international one.

batgirl

Thanks Farnel.

Down the rabbit hole we go....

batgirl

Isn't the good Queen Elizabeth the monarch of Australia?

kindaspongey
batgirl wrote:

... This same code was used in the 1945 USA-USSR Radio Match, and I know for a fact, even in 1950. ...

Could it be that the code was transmitted by equipment that was also capable of voice communication?

alleenkatze
kindaspongey wrote:
batgirl wrote:

... This same code was used in the 1945 USA-USSR Radio Match, and I know for a fact, even in 1950. ...

Could it be that the code was transmitted by equipment that was also capable of voice communication?

 

No voice.  Radiotelegraphy messages (eg. radiograms)

From the following links:

http://www.chessmaniac.com/usa-vs-ussr-radio-match-1945/

http://billwall.phpwebhosting.com/articles/radio.htm

"The match was played by radio (using the Mackay Radio & Telegraph Company to send radiograms) starting at 10 am EST, and was a double round robin. The time limit was 40 moves in 2 1/2 hours and 16 moves per hour after that. The Udeman Code was used for transmitting the move messages. It took an average of 5 minutes to transmit a move. "

...

"The match was historic in that it was the first international sports event since the outbreak of World War II. Also, never before had teams representing the USA and the USSR competed against each other. It was the first match to be played by radio telegraphy. Up to that time it was the most widely publicized event and the greatest spectacle in the chess history of the United States. This was also the debut of the USSR in a sport. Never before had the USSR play another country in any form of sport. "

An interesting WCHOF exhibit related to post WWII chess that includes a cover from this match.   https://worldchesshof.org/battle-on-the-board-chess-during-wwii  

Farnel
batgirl wrote:

Isn't the good Queen Elizabeth the monarch of Australia?

Yes she is, she is indeed the head of state of Australia, as she is the head of state of many (not sure if all) British Commonwealth countries. The Governor-General is her representative here in Australia. The day to day role of governing Australia has been in the hands of the Australian federal parliament for a long time, and the role of the British monarchy in Australia is now mostly symbolic.

One of these days, we will have a federal govenrment that will actively push for Australia to remove even those tenuous ties to the monarchy and Australia will officially become the republic that we are in all but name, and have our own head of state. It still seems a bit of a joke to me that we don't.

minichess

Here is latest on radio, telegraphy, wireless, etc

 

http://billwall.phpwebhosting.com/articles/chess_before_the_internet.htm

jbent02
batgirl wrote:

The Gringmuth Code, usually called the Udemann Code though the two were slightly different,  was used for transmission of chess moves via telegraph as early as 1866. This same code was used in the 1945 USA-USSR Radio Match, and I know for a fact, even in 1950.  So, it would seem to very little difference, practically speaking of course, in telegraph, wireless telegraph and radio - as far as chess matches go. 

Is there a difference between ship-to-shore radio, short wave radio, wireless radio... or are these term used to describe similar technology?

There is a difference between "ship-to-shore radio, short wave radio, wireless radio" For example, Short wave radios have shorter radio waves than other radios, ( They are cheaper, but have less range.),  Ship to shore radios have longer waves and are a longer range radio than a short wave radio.

camter

Get this straight. It is the wireless, because it has no wires.

 

I turned 78 the other day, so I should know. And so should you all.

 

Ain't' nothin' new under the sun!

RussBell

Radio refers to the physical DEVICES used to transmit and receive an electrical information signal via electromagnetic waves "over the air" - that is, without the use of wires or cables to convey the electrical signal between the transmitter and receiver (i.e., the radios).  Telegraphy refers to a specific type of information SIGNAL transmission format using the Morse code.  Initially the Morse formatted electrical signals were transmitted over wires (i.e., cables) from source (transmitter) to destination (receiver).  This was the first instance of "wired" signal transmission.  Once the radio transmitter and receiver were subsequently invented, it became possible, by connecting antennas to them, to send and receive the information signals via electromagnetic waves.  Such electromagnetic signal transmission, without the use of wires, is also generically referred to as "wireless" or "radio frequency" (RF) transmission, irrespective of the type or format of the information signal being transmitted.

Bottom line - the generally understood convention regarding the terms radio and wireless is that one implies the other, and are essentially synonymous terms referring to the hardware technology used to transmit and receive any information bearing signal via electromagnetic waves, irrespective of the signal's format (e.g., Morse code), and obviating the requirement for wires or cables to connect the transmitter and receiver.

RussBell
alleenkatze wrote:
minichess wrote:

I'll have to update my article on radio and wireless chess and fix all the confusing terms or define them better.  I also wrote on telegraphs and cable matches.  An interesting time before the Internet.

- Bill Wall

 

I think your articles are accurate in using the terms telegraph, cable and radio, but a distinction between radiotelegraphy or radiotelephony might be needed.    Thanks.

 

Radiotelegraphy refers to the transmission of Morse code signals via radio (wireless).  Radiotelephony refers to voice (audio) signals via radio.  These are now essentially archaic terms, rarely used today, referring to signal transmission technologies of the distant past.  For example, the Morse format for signal transmission is now virtually defunct for modern communications, having been superseded by more complex signal coding techniques and transmission technologies.

batgirl

Thanks for the detailed explanations Russ.  

RussBell
jbent02 wrote:
batgirl wrote:

The Gringmuth Code, usually called the Udemann Code though the two were slightly different,  was used for transmission of chess moves via telegraph as early as 1866. This same code was used in the 1945 USA-USSR Radio Match, and I know for a fact, even in 1950.  So, it would seem to very little difference, practically speaking of course, in telegraph, wireless telegraph and radio - as far as chess matches go. 

Is there a difference between ship-to-shore radio, short wave radio, wireless radio... or are these term used to describe similar technology?

There is a difference between "ship-to-shore radio, short wave radio, wireless radio" For example, Short wave radios have shorter radio waves than other radios, ( They are cheaper, but have less range.),  Ship to shore radios have longer waves and are a longer range radio than a short wave radio.

Wireless radio is just a generic, catch-all term that refers to any information transmission technology that uses radios, which in turn necessarily implies that the transmission is via electromagnetic waves (i.e., wireless).

Ship to shore simply refers to the source and destination of the radio transmission link - it has nothing to do with the specific technology employed (other than it implies the use of radios, i.e., wireless transmission).

Short wave refers to the wavelength of an electromagnetic radio wave of a specific frequency, where the frequency of the signal's radio frequency (RF) carrier is in the range 1.6MHz-30MHz.  The higher the frequency of the transmitted signal, the shorter the wavelength of that signal (the magnitudes of the frequency and wavelength of a signal are inversely related).

Search "High Frequency" (HF) in the following articles.  This is the part of the RF spectrum (approximately 3MHz-30MHz) used for Short Wave radio transmission....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortwave_radio

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_spectrum

The following comments above are also not necessarily true....

"( They are cheaper, but have less range.), Ship to shore radios have longer waves and are a longer range radio than a short wave radio."

(i.e., cheaper than what?  less range than what?  Also, most ship to shore radios are short wave radios - ship to shore refers to the application or type of use; short wave refers to the frequency or wavelength of the transmitted signal.).

RussBell
batgirl wrote:

Thanks for the detailed explanations Russ.  

Welcome batgirl.  

BTW - I enjoy your chess history forum threads.  Keep up the good work!

FYI - I'm a (retired) Radio Frequency (RF) engineer.  So when I saw the title, I felt compelled to weigh in on this thread - hopefully helping to clarify, rather than adding to, the confusion regarding radio/wireless concepts!