Secret of Studying Style of B.Fischer

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gabrielconroy

That's exactly what I did (clearly), and asked other people to state their opinions in equally clear terms.

TheGrobe
davidegpc wrote:

Girls learn to talk before boys. Is it talent? No, science discovered, thanks to experiments, that is the level of hormones in the womb. Does it mean that 100% of girls learn to talk before boys??? NO! Again learn statistics, and you will discover there is nothing working 100% of the time, we make reasonable predictions, and do have outliers.

Experiments also on how male children are treated compared to females have shown huge differences, things parents don't even suspect, but they do all the time. They even measure the amount of autonomy in feet distance given to a boy and to a girl, and guess what? 99.7% of the time, no matter the continent, boys are let go further by parents, so you made a lot of examples which can be easy answered if you read a little more. Like I advised Reb, just go to the nearest library, and the librarian will help you to grow out of those beliefs.


Any insight into what makes some people bigger dicks than others?

theoreticalboy
Arctor wrote:
theoreticalboy wrote:
bigpoison wrote:
Man! that was funny!

You're tired of lies, yet you assert talent is a myth.


This "magic number" of study is clearly hokum.  Had Mozart put in that much study when he was touring Europe at 6 years old?


 Mozart's father was a composer who was obsessive about teaching his children music from a very young age. So what do you reckon, do you think Mozart had put in more study by age 6 than his "untalented" peers?

As for Sonic Youth...one mans gold is another mans garbage


Critical acclaim is undeniable, and anyway, you can't deny that their guitar work is far more complex than most people who have studied... but music is much more relative than chess, so it's probably facetious to conflate the two.

Still, saying Mozart was instructed in music by his father doesn't come close to explaining how he was considered good enough to tour Europe when he was six friggin years old.

For the record, I don't think any of us who say there is such a thing as talent beyond hard work are entirely denying the existence of environmental factors.  You're the ones who are being absolutists, and it's not a pretty sight.

theoreticalboy
davidegpc wrote:
gabrielconroy wrote:

This argument seems extremely facetious to me.

 

If people are arguing that 'talent' is too vague and nebulous a concept to be useful without further qualification, then I'd agree. But if people are trying to assert that there is no such thing as one person having a greater natural aptitude for a given task than another, and that all there is to it is hard work, then I'd say that is clearly false.

 

Which is it?


still you didn't bring any proof, apart your opinion.


The proof is more in the fact that you're asserting the contrary, and you're clearly an idiot.

You think if I work hard enough I could catch Usain Bolt?

goldendog
TheGrobe wrote:

Any insight into what makes some people bigger dicks than others?


Hormones again. The girls just don't have a chance.

TheGrobe
theoreticalboy wrote:
davidegpc wrote:
gabrielconroy wrote:

This argument seems extremely facetious to me.

 

If people are arguing that 'talent' is too vague and nebulous a concept to be useful without further qualification, then I'd agree. But if people are trying to assert that there is no such thing as one person having a greater natural aptitude for a given task than another, and that all there is to it is hard work, then I'd say that is clearly false.

 

Which is it?


still you didn't bring any proof, apart your opinion.


The proof is more in the fact that you're asserting the contrary, and you're clearly an idiot.

You think if I work hard enough I could catch Usain Bolt?


Prove you can't or you're an idiot!

theoreticalboy

But I can't prove it; I haven't taken a four-year course in statistical analysis yet!

philidorposition
SeamusORiley wrote:
...

Do these two samples highlight natural talent?


I think you have defined what is generally called "talent" pretty well. When I talk about my chess abilities to others, I say, "I definitely don't have much talent," and that is ture, I progress very slowly, but in honesty, I strongly feel that if the game was systematically presented to me even in my late childhood, I would be a pretty "talented" chess player by now. Anyway, this personal part is just speculation, you can as well ignore it, but the point is that, talent is not really based on some magical entity that is spread randomly to different people (races, sexes, etc), it has little to do with your genes, or from a different discourse, "a gift from god" or something like that. It is about your environment, how you developed as a person, what toys you were handed by your parents when you were 2 years old, what kind of approach your first teacher had, did you have a dog or a cat in the house, or none? Did you have a mean neighbour kid who bullied you or not, etc. And this of course doesn't end with your childhood stage, but that's when your personality, learning skills, aptitudes etc can change much more quickly. 

If you were the "experimental daughter" of Lazslo, you would be not playing with your friend, but coaching him. That experiment is a very serious one, it's really really convincing. Even the wife was chosen by a newspaper ad, mentioning the experiment. And it did "produce" the single best female player in history, and by an incredibly large margin among others.

Personally, I really don't understand why that experiment isn't among the most famous (like pavlov's) in the history of many different disciplines, starting with psychology. It is genuinely one of its kind, and is something that is extremely difficult to be equaled in the history and future of science. No university at the moment could pull of such a strong experiment, simply because of ethical and practical reasons (no one would spare their marriage and child's life etc).

Elubas

His passion for the game was simply incredible; we should admire that. I love the part where he teaches himself Russian just to read more books Laughing

TheGrobe

All of this has me wondering:  Is it possible to be talented at hard work?

I'm certainly not.

Elubas
philidor_position wrote:
SeamusORiley wrote:
...

Do these two samples highlight natural talent?


 

If you were the "experimental daughter" of Lazslo, you would be not playing with your friend, but coaching him. That experiment is a very serious one, it's really really convincing. Even the wife was chosen by a newspaper ad, mentioning the experiment. And it did "produce" the single best female player in history, and by an incredibly large margin among others.

Personally, I really don't understand why that experiment isn't among the most famous (like pavlov's) in the history of many different disciplines, starting with psychology.


It is surprising it doesn't get as much attention, isn't it? From what I have heard, lots of great players tend to imply that "great players are born." But I find it incredible that this father says he's going to make three brilliant chess daughters, and that's exactly what he does! Most convincing is that all three of them were at least master level players -- what are the odds that he would make three exceptional talents? It's not like Kasparov could say he had two brothers who were also masters. I think most people agree that being related to a great chess player does not equal being anywhere near as good. He put them all under his study plan, and it worked for each one. What a way to prove a point!

Elubas
TheGrobe wrote:

All of this has me wondering:  Is it possible to be talented at hard work?

I'm certainly not.


I think so Smile

I believe I am Smile

philidorposition
Elubas wrote:
philidor_position wrote:

Definitely. When I say it should be among the most influential experiments of all time, I'm not exaggerating to make a point, I honestly mean it, I'm dumbstruck by it's very low popularity compared to the strength of it. It isn't even cited in courses like "psychology of learning" at university level. I truly think it's very absurd.

Maybe it's because it's not done in the academia, but that's bullshit. The fact that 1) he wrote the book before he started the experiment is just, I mean, it's just amazingly convincing. Add to that,

2) One of her daughters has reached not only GM level, but has made history even when evaluated only chesswise (ignoring the experiment)

3) As you have mentioned, all sisters became incredibly strong players,

4) His wife was chosen randomly

These four aspects just nail it. No doubt, no question whatsoever. The hypothesis has been proven.

Thinking more about it, if he were a Harvard professor in psychology department, I believe he would now be at the top of the science world. 

kco

 Michael355 = GambitKing ? davidegpc it looked like your friend back.

Jazzist

blablabla

TheGrobe
Elubas wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

All of this has me wondering:  Is it possible to be talented at hard work?

I'm certainly not.


I think so

I believe I am


I'd like to think I'm talented at being talented.  It's a pretty sweet gig.

theoreticalboy
Jazzist wrote:

blablabla


I was going to say I agreed with your post, then came back and found this...which I obviously agree with even more Laughing

uri65

I have very poor memory. It has always been like this since I remember myself as a child. I am sure this comes from genes and not from environment (by the way my older brother has exceptional memory). And regarding chess I have really hard time with the opening theory.

Are you saying that with proper training I could make a GM? I don't think even growing up in Polgar family could help. No way.

theoreticalboy
davidegpc wrote:
uri65 wrote:

I have very poor memory. It has always been like this since I remember myself as a child. I am sure this comes from genes and not from environment (by the way my older brother has exceptional memory). And regarding chess I have really hard time with the opening theory.

Are you saying that with proper training I could make a GM? I don't think even growing up in Polgar family could help. No way.


If nothing is wrong with your brain, and you are not very old, like 70, yes I think you can. But you'd need 10 years studying 10-12 hours a day, under different coaches. Notice some people mistake GM with the top elite, I'm not saying that. I'm saying you can reach 2500.


Then how does one become a member of the "top elite"?

TheGrobe

And why not GM?  What's different about GMs?