Strategy for playing against Stonewall setups

I have an annoyingly hard time playing against Stonewall-type pawn setups, as either black or white. 

I'm actually ok as the aggressor who uses the Stonewall to build an attack - Valeri Lilov did a set of good youtube videos on it explaining how to build a kside attack after setting up the Stonewall pawns (Rook lift, queen shift, etc.) 

I however would like some strategic ideas to disrupt the 'typical' Stonewall kside aggression, and hopefully unbalance the position.

I don't think I'm losing disproportionately against the Stonewall, it's just my games almost end up symmetric and boring and obvious by the middlegame. Both of us try and plant that advanced Stonewall central N, and then we both trade it off at some point. CPU says we're usually near equal, and it's often not obvious how to proceed from these equal positions. 

I've had this same question. Well I either fall right into White's desired play or, as you mentioned, it's symmetical and boring.  

I asked John Bartholomew in the comments section of one of his YouTube vids about a good plan for Black in these structures (against White's Stonewall Attack). He mentioned that one good plan for Black is to try to organize the e5 pawn break. I actually had some nice success with that in the very next game I played (although the comp showed me afterwards that I was too hasty trying to do it).  

Yeah, it's pretty boring. You open a line or two on the queenside or center with your c pawn break and play a better endgame usually.

Not sure how to unbalance it / force more lines open. Your options will be limited by your repertoire e.g. what you play against 1.d4

That's a nice line, and also fits into the typical g2 fianchetto setups that are favored against most Dutch ..f5 lines. 

I only recently started doing white's setup of fianchettoing on g2 and playing for c4/d4 against Dutch defenses, and it's def been leading to better games as white. I used to employ the London system setup against it, but despite Cyrus Ladkdawala saying it's fine against the Dutch in his book "Play the London", I get some really cramped and ugly positions as white if I do it.

So basically I had to learn the hard way that as white, the mainline Bg2 fianchetto with c4/d4 is favored against Dutch defenses for a good reason. They're just easier setups to play.

I know I am only partially answering the question, but what I do against players who want a stonewall structure as white or black is just refuse to comply.

For example, I am black-

1 d4 N-f6

2 e3 g6

3 f4 B-g7

4 N-f3 d6

Just by avoiding d5 you deny them their stonewall.  And the pawn on d6 makes N-e5 dubious.

When playing against the Stonewall I think you want to refrain from massive exchanges on the "holes" which leave a dull position.  Instead, keep the option open to go into the holes whenever the exchanges are not possible (say, the opponent has redeployed for a kingside attack) and in the meantime, play for a break either in the center (f3/e4 vs. a Dutch Stonewall) or on the queenside (a pawn storm can lead to a very weak black pawn and the possibility of coming in laterally toward Black's kingside).  The Stonewall pawn structure is strong vs. a frontal assault but if a rook gets to a6 and pressures the e6 pawn from the side, it can start looking very fragile.

By this do you mean, for example, don't play Ne5 if the opponent can swap lots of pieces off on this square? Because that is true. However, like in the line I posted above, swapping off the dark squared bishops is almost always an achievement for white - his worst piece for black's best.

If you have trouble against stonewalls, you should become familiar with the weaknesses that arise when one plays an opening with two pawns on the same color attacking the same square. 

Why not 5...c5?

At least for me, if I'm white playing against the Stonewall black setup (like the diagram given above) by dghg, if I try and claim space with c5, black counterpunches with e5, threatening to undermine that c5 pawn by hitting its supporting d4 pawn. I've had a few ugly positions from that, which is why I stopped playing it (despite Lilov's advice to expand on the qside against Stonewall setups.)

Keep the anti-Stonewall stuff coming, dghg! I'm going to save those analyses you gave and use them myself! If you've got any more pet anti-Stonewall lines to share, please do!

As a rule: Don't play c4-c5 unless black has both a piece on d6 and pawns on b6 and a5 AND you can take back with a piece (i.e. very rarely :) ). In this scenario white secures the c5 square as an outpost for a knight.

You can also play c5 as part of a queenside expansion, e.g. a4, b3-b4-b5, but try to make it the LAST move of your expansion, as otherwise e6-e5 gains in strength.

Just try to get by without pushing c4-c5 - the c-pawn is already doing an important job pressurising d5.

@ dghg:

In the first diagram you showed, if white goes the route of the Ne5 line (the last move variation you list), what's the best way to deal with Black playing Ne4? (That's the main annoyance in these Stonewall setups - the enemy N in your camp.)

I've tried:

- Booting it with f3

- Trading it for a N (or B) but giving him another central pawn 

- Tolerating it

I've had most success with f3, but that's likely because my opponents don't know how to punish my weakening of my castled K. What do you end up doing against that black N on e4 if you play that Ne5 line as you recommended?

I don't even play 1.d4 much, but I have studied Petrosian. This one I haven't played, but it is popular at high level.

DON'T TRADE IT. Well, Ok that's a generalisation, but that gives black what he wants - attacking chances.

Tolerate it for as long as possible - first play b3, Bb2 Nf3-e5-d3 and Nd2-f3. Now you are developed and can try Nfe5 followed by f3 and even a quick e2-e4 (preceeded by Re1). I had a game that I won exactly like this about a year ago but I don't think I saved it... Sorry.

Awesome, thx. Will def give those a try. I'm sure they'll work a lot better than my current weak attempts!

Happy to help!

Here is my set of rules when playing Queen's Gambit style games against
Dutch Stonewall. This is not a recipe on how to win but rather at set
of strategic rules that should give white an edge.

If:

- Black develops a triangle (...f5 is still not played) with either a
Knight or Bishop it and you have developed a knight on Nc3, you should
play e4.

Otherwise:

- As soon as you realize ...f5 you take the pawn on d5 with cxd5,
follow up with Bg5 and try to take the black bishop otherwise take the
knight when it is forced.

- If black takes back with the c-pawn cxd5, this opens the c-file,
continue development with e3, Bd3, O-O and try to double your rooks on
the c-file and continue pressure on the queenside.

- If black takes back with the e-pawn exd5, this weakens the f-pawn and
the stonewall, continue development with e3, Bd3, O-O and you can try
and

1) put pressure on the f5 pawn playing Qc2 followed by g4, note the
bishop on Bd3 is pointing on h6.

or

2) you can try to play Qc2, Nfd2, f3 and prepare to push e3-e4 in order
to break the wall.

- Always be cautious when black play his queen to Qh5 or the rook is
lifted to Rh6! A wing-attack might be on it's way!