Tactics Trainer, the value of time pressure?

It's not just sacing the queen that's illogical, it's making any move at the end of the timing window. Once the timer gets low, you could make a move immediately and get 21-25% or you could take as long as you want, double check everything, and get 20%.

This is especially true if the solution is going to be more than 1 move long. If you make the first move at 25%, you probably won't finish the line before it's down to 20% anyhow. So it's  logical at this point to just take your time, double check your analysis, and make the right move and get your 20% rather than rush at the end of the time control and get 0.

 

I've seen the "I make a move at the end just to beat the timer" idea from a number of people and it's just a misunderstanding of how the timer works.

"I seem to remember that Erik once mentioned, in a similar discussion, that the time alloted for a problem is based on the average solution time for that problem."

That's interesting.  In checking a few problems, it looks like indeed the allotted time is 2x the "Avg. Time" stated in the statistic for the puzzle.    So the midpoint of the allotted time is = statistical average time.  That would explain why the time seems short for me.  I know generally that I'm a clear thinker but slower than average on the uptake ;).

AquaMan wrote:

"I seem to remember that Erik once mentioned, in a similar discussion, that the time alloted for a problem is based on the average solution time for that problem."

That's interesting.  Erik, can you confirm?  That would explain why the time seems short for me.  I know generally that I'm a clear thinker but slower than average on the uptake ;).

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 correct :)

I use tactics trainer as well.  And I have the settings set to "rated (timed)", but I have unchecked the "show clock".

That way, I do get timed puzzles, but I don't have the stress of seeing the timer go down.  I just solve the puzzles, without worrying about the time.  It has helped me a lot.

edit: OK, maybe I don't want to "entirely understand" as I'm sure there's a bunch of statistics involved.  But maybe just in layman's terms how I get + 27 on one problem and -1 on another, both problems solved with just a few seconds left on the clock.
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I don't think I entirely understand the relationship between time left on the clock and adjustment to my rating. In the image capture below, I had just a few seconds left on the clock, indicated by the short red bar, but it says "score: 58%" and my rating says 875 (+27).  Does that mean my rating gained 27 from solving this problem and is now 875?  On some other problems, if I'm not mistaken, I've solved them with just a few seconds left on the clock and had (-1) next to my rating.  So in this case I gained 27 and in other cases I've lost 1.  I'm probably misunderstanding something.  It's hard being slow on the uptake :).

Also, what's the point of the Problem Rating: 1000 (-27)? Does the problem rating adjust based on how people score on it?  It's starting to look to me like the program continuously adjusts rating of both the player _and_ the problem, based on rating of the player at the time they try the problem and their performance on the problem.  If true then your rating _and_ the rating of the problem is relative to performance of the other players on this site.  

This leads me to the following emotion:

ROOT OUT AND DESTROY ALL TACTICS TRAINER CHEATERS !!!  OK, sorry, I'm calm now :).

This tactics trainer rocks, IMO.  I'm just a little intrigued with how the rating works at this point.  I mostly use it to learn.  But I can feel the competitive itch kicking in, already.

By the way, thanks Loomis, and others, for pointing out that it's good to let the clock run out if you haven't solved the problem yet, rather than throw a guess at it.  Makes sense.

 

lanceuppercut_239 wrote:

 I seem to remember that Erik once mentioned, in a similar discussion, that the time alloted for a problem is based on the average solution time for that problem.

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Then if the first who solved the problem thought 10 minutes then most of next players will use this time without hurry - average time will be big (and vice versa). So the knowladge about time limit is a positive feedback that directly influences on objective measurement of "average time".

I also vote for dual ratings.  I like the time pressure on the one hand because I mostly play internet chess and almost always play much slower than my opponent.  So the pressure helps me speed up the pace a little.  However, I need to be able to learn tactical formations and techniques without worrying at first about a clock.

wormrose wrote: For me - the question is - "Why are we denied ratings simply because we prefer to train without the clock?" It is called Tactics *Trainer* - not Tactics *Contest*. The only explanation I've heard so far is that the ratings would be totally useless. Usless for what?!? What would the top ten rated *trainers* get for being top of the list? Bragging rights?!? 
When I became a paid member of chess.com the deciding factor was Tactics Trainer. There was a notice that usage would be reduced from 10 a day to 3 a day for free memberships. That - in itself - was not enough to convince me to be a paid member. But there was also a notice that Tactics Trainer would be available in an un-timed version. For me that was really good news because I AM SLOW. Once I was a full member the very first thing I did was open Tactics Trainer and figure out how to play untimed. When I saw there were no ratings - I felt like I'd been robbed. 
The attitude of chess.com seems to be that if we had ratings for untimed puzzles that we would be getting something we don't deserve. Or that having such a rating would give us some kind of advantage over someone else. I think a rating for untimed tactics would have just about the same significance as member points - they are meaningless - except to chess.com. And a rating for un-timed puzzles would be just as meaningless - except to me.
Lately I haven't been using Tactics Trainer. I simply became more and more discouraged because I was losing points even though I had solved the puzzle and I no longer felt I was getting anything out of it. It is for those who are quick in the mind and quick on the mouse. It's not for me :-(

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 Thank you for your thoughts. We will definitely consider adding an un-timed rating for players. 

good Idea

wormrose, your complains seem to be contradictory. Tactics trainer now has the untimed mode. There you can select the range of puzzle's rating to solve and to do "training". As you mentioned that it is not "Contest" - and there are no logical conflicts that your rating does not change in this mode. But to have adequate rating of problems these problems have to be passed through objective competition against players. Are you interested in precise rating of problems? If yes, then you have to understand that rating of problem that was calculated by untimed mode would be useless exactly for _you_.

I'm also a slow player. That is why I play "turn-based chess" instead of "live". My rating in tacktics trainer jumps from 1500 (even 1200) to 1900 while in untimed mode I sometimes solved even 2400 rated problems. I found that it is more interesting for me to spend more time for more difficult problems and currently I switched to unrated mode. Maybe it is not efficient enough and further I plan to switch back to timed mode. I do not see any problems with missing rating in untimed mode. Even more I think the situation has to stay unchanged to force more people to use timed mode to maintain precision of problems' rating.

I'm expecting trophies and candy from all the slow, I mean clock challenged, players, for having started this thread! ;). 

The value of time pressure in tactics traning is to get you to look more at the board not were the pieces are placed but the gap and holes they create. When the pressure is on you may not have the time to see what piece is guarding what and if you make a certain move what that will effect later in the game. But the holes and gaps are right there to see, you might ask what causes the hole or gaps ? For me I look for how a players pawns are placed, if theres a hole or gap I'm going through it.

Looks like Eric is investigating putting a rated non timed section in tactics trainer. I am happy he is at least considering it. As I already mentioned he could keep the rating private in that section  similar to chessmentor which is not geared to competition and rating status but just uses the rating to show ones invidividual development in different areas.  And frankly I really do not think more time is going to affect the ratings that much. If one does not get it in say the first five minutes it is unlikely that person will ever get it right later on. But five minutes to 60 seconds is a quite difference and being able to feel you do not have rush and can spend you time calculating will also prevent a lot of 'hail mary' moves. You all know what I mean. The moves you make now will actually be because you think they are correct and if they are not you cannot blame time. That will really help point out the errors in your thought processes.

I think it's important to get used to time pressure. I like to think that eventually I'll be able to ignore any anxiety/panic associated with it through repeated exposure to tightly timed problems... dare to dream!

Well, if you play only turn-based chess, or out-right correspondence chess, it seems kind of silly to rate yourself by what you can spot in 60 seconds. Me, I really enjoy sitting down with a position and a large cup of coffee or two and running through sideline after sideline of one position in ExaChess, which I think is probably a lot like ChessBase, except for Mac. I don't use an engine to analyze in ExaChess; I just use it like an analysis board that saves every sideline you manually investigate.

What I'm getting at is that I'll spend an hour or more pouring over one position, so speed in finding solutions to tactics problems seems irrelevant to me. Of course, if you're into OTB chess, especially blitz, then of course I can see that a timer and rating would be invaluable. But it seems to me that if you're not interested in OTB chess, you can just go into Settings and turn off the Tactics Trainer's timer and not be bothered by it. Chess.com lets you have it both ways.

not quite  It doesnt let you have it both ways imo. In a rated session the trainer will typically throw stuff at  you near your rating level and it is nice to have that kind of adaptive environment. In unrated you have to do all that manually and there is really no way to track your progress  in terms of percentage right wrong and at what level you are performing. I personally think it would be nice if they offered both a blitz and  a standard rated tactics regimen.

nimbleswitch, think of the tactics trainer positions as the kinds of positions you'd find in each of the many sidelines you investigate. While pouring over one position in ExaChess you probably come across a dozen or more (twenty? thirty? depends on how wide and deep you're searching) positions like you'll be solving in tactics trianer. If you can't evaluate these quickly and accurately (1 to 3 minutes) you'll never be able to analyze a position the way you describe.

 

The tactics trainer positions are pulled out as specifically those positions with a single tactical resolution. They are not like a position where you can dig deep into sideline after sideline. They reperesent the kinds of things that will truncate sidelines, e.g. one side has lost to a combination. So, tactics trainer is training you to quickly and accurately evaluate those sideline tactics so that you can deeply analyze a position in a manageable time.