Three-fold repetition

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Avatar of Murgen

If the same position occurs three times then either both players don't dare try anything else or they have run out of ideas... otherwise they'd be trying a different move.

I currently only track a game I'm playing for threefold repetition if I either want a draw or can't see any way the game won't be one. Smile

Avatar of chess_pagol

i knew till now the same as acemove said. I knew both players have to move same squares 3 times in same board position not required successively.

Avatar of AIM-AceMove

Yes the picture is 3 times shown but is white to move. They can change position. It is like saying the begining of the game after white 1st move 1.e4 to claim game is now uneven and not ballanced and non equal. But other side did not had chance to move.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl
AIM-AceMove wrote:

Bishop on b2 is not part of the repeating moves. The pieces that is repeating is Rook and Queen. It is logical.  Rook on F4 by white is played only 2 times. If 31. Rf4 then it should be draw. But i do not write rules nor i can change them.

The main thing to remember that you are not counting moves but positions. The most common occurrence is the shuffling of a couple of pieces back and forth but that isn't required.

Something else I didn't mention, since it wasn't pertinent to this particular position, is that in order for triple-repetition to count all possible moves must still be available in each position. For example, if an en-passant capture was availalble in the initial position, that position doesn't count for a claim, as en-passant is not available in the later positions. Also, if castling was possible in one of the positions but not in the later ones, that doesn't count either.

Avatar of chess_pagol

it's look like black claimed the draw after moving 30.Qh4. Question is why black has been given favour to make the 3rd move repetition!. It should have been like that white makes final move and black claim draw. even black has been the one who created the first repetition on Bxb2 and his intention was draw in his losing position.

Avatar of AIM-AceMove

Exacly!

Avatar of Martin_Stahl
Enthusiast14 wrote:

it's look like black claimed the draw after moving 30.Qh4. Question is why black has been given favour to make the 3rd move repetition!. It should have been like that white makes final move and black claim draw. even black has been the one who created the first repetition on Bxb2 and his intention was draw in his losing position.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. As soon as the position was repeated for the third time, and the same player is to move, the draw can be claimed.

It doesn't matter what move (short of the couple of exceptions I already noted) created the inital positon, all that matters is that it occurred and the same side was to move in that position on the third repetition. If you don't want the chance of something like that you have to deviate from the position to prevent it.

Avatar of chess_pagol

This rule is very complicated in the sense that you have to remember the board position while playing and also after the position whose move is next !. One thing to be noted is in blitz or rapid otb game you can't claim it coz no move is written! unless it's some sort of perpetual checks. 

Avatar of ThrillerFan

Enthusiast14 wrote:

So it's another version of 3-fold repetition called "triple-repetition of position" ? i knew two versions - 1.perpetual check 2. both players comes to same square 3 times in same board position(not required in consecutive moves). 

3 fold repetition is NOT the repetition of moves.

It is repetiion of position!  The moves don't even need to be the same.

I had a game about 10 to 15 years ago.  I was White.  Black had 3 pawns on a6, b5, and c4.  He also had a Knight.  I had both White Bishops.  The same position occurred after White's 53rd move, Whites 58th move, and Whites 62nd move.  The way we got there was not the same.  Doesn't matter.  The POSITION occurred 3 times.

 

Here's the formal layout of the rule:

 

A player can claim a draw by 3-fold repetition if the EXACT SAME POSITION occurs 3 times WITH THE SAME PLAYER TO MOVE, that player HAVING THE SAME LEGAL OPTIONS ALL 3 TIMES.

 

Here's an example (See diagram above)

Avatar of TheOldReb

If you make a claim and it turns out to be wrong the arbiter/td can and often does " punish " you for an improper claim too . 

Avatar of chess_pagol

@ThrillerFan in your example it's look like after Ke8, black will claim draw where white having the same legal options and white to move, doesn't matter whether black had legal options or not ? likewise in my my example.

can it be like that say same board positions arised after black's move number 100, 105, 109, so after 109th move it's again white's turn to move and it is white who wanna claim draw instead black ?? 

Avatar of Lagomorph

ThrillerFan

According to FIDE rules at least (are USCF rules the same ?) the legal options must be available to both players, not just the one having the move:

Article 9.2 (excerpt) Positions are considered the same if and only if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same.

Avatar of Lagomorph
Enthusiast14 wrote:

@ThrillerFan in your example it's look like after Ke8, black will claim draw where white having the same legal options and white to move, doesn't matter whether black had legal options or not ?

I suggest that 28..... Ke8 is the first instance of that position having arisen. A draw cannot be claimed.

Avatar of Lagomorph
Enthusiast14 wrote:

can it be like that say same board positions arised after black's move number 100, 105, 109, so after 109th move it's again white's turn to move and it is white who wanna claim draw instead black ?? 

The FIDE rules state that a draw can be claimed either:

 by the player having the move when the position has appeared three times (in your example white, after black has played 109)

or by the player whose move it is "intending" to make a move that will cause the third repetition. The player writes the move on his scoresheet (black's move 109) and calls the arbiter.

The second option is not available on chess.com.

Avatar of chess_pagol

@thriller look like it's true that last ke8 is first position according to legal moves available for both. So please correct and post right everybody