Okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume for a second that chess is indeed a forced win for white. What first move leads to it? First off, we know for a fact that white can't win with just any move. 1.g4, for instance, is either a draw or a win for black, and even 4th millennium technology isn't going to change that. Is it 1.e4? I want to see your refutation of the Berlin defense in that case. So which first move? What's your best guess? What's your gut feeling?
True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides
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Objectively there is no first move advantage in tic-tac-toe or checkers but practically the player who moves first has a better chance to win. Very simple Ponz and Patriot.
Mark that is exactly what I mentioned--though I used more words. 
okay. lemme get this straight.
...no first move advantage in tic-tac-toe or checkers...who (ever) moves first has a better chance to win.
wha-WHAT ???
uhh, u may wanna do a logic check b4 u rank on P & P ? thats dum.
Way-of-Pain wrote:
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume for a second that chess is indeed a forced win for white. What first move leads to it? First off, we know for a fact that white can't win with just any move. 1.g4, for instance, is either a draw or a win for black, and even 4th millennium technology isn't going to change that. Is it 1.e4? I want to see your refutation of the Berlin defense in that case. So which first move? What's your best guess? What's your gut feeling?
I have no idea. Nobody else does either. With the weird combinations of moves that new computers are finding it could be something nobody has thought of yet. Or it could be that none exist. It's just far too early to know.
Sep 11, 2020
0
#3727
ponz111 wrote:
I do not know if there has been research on that subject but it is rather obvious.
1. It is very unlikely that Black wins with perfect play by both sides.
He starts with a slight disadvantage.
So this leaves either White wins or it is a draw. However we can eliminate White wins this way---Out of the billions of games played show one game where White wins without Black making a mistake.
If not one game can be found out of billions--that would be pretty good evidence.
Everything is summed up here.
Some people on this thread would make pretty poor game designers 
. It's entirely possible to have a first move advantage for one player over another that is not a decisive advantage. Chess works because material advantages up to a minor piece (2 if both knights) can still be a drawn game. If the player with a 1 pawn advantage at the end always won, then the game would be all about trading down to a won endgame the second a pawn got grabbed, and the game would have been boring and died out centuries ago. Sometimes trading down works, sometimes it doesn't.
It's like en passant. A ton of chess players don't understand the need for it at all...they cannot even conceptualize what would happen to chess endgames if a pawn on the 2nd rank could jump past a pawn on the 4th and become a passed pawn.
I remember my very first USCF tournament --The US Open in Omaha in 1959. In one game I was not doing very well but GM Pal Benko was looking at my game. Why would a GM who was trying for first place be interested in a game by 2 Juniors? [Benko was looking from about 2 tables away]
And then I figured it out--Benko was a well known endgame super expert. So I made a sacrifice which left me with a bare king. My opponent had a king and a bishop and a pawn.
and both his pawn and bishop were well protected by his king. I offered a draw and at that moment Benko came over to our table and announced "It is a draw!!" My opponent was stunned only for about 3 seconds and then agreed to m,y offer of a draw.
Chess is very hard to win sometimes even with a nice material advantage. This, in itself, does not prove chess is a draw with best play---it is just one more piece of evidence.
I think it is of course
Sep 12, 2020
0
#3731
ponz111 wrote:
I remember my very first USCF tournament --The US Open in Omaha in 1959. In one game I was not doing very well but GM Pal Benko was looking at my game. Why would a GM who was trying for first place be interested in a game by 2 Juniors? [Benko was looking from about 2 tables away]
And then I figured it out--Benko was a well known endgame super expert. So I made a sacrifice which left me with a bare king. My opponent had a king and a bishop and a pawn.
and both his pawn and bishop were well protected by his king. I offered a draw and at that moment Benko came over to our table and announced "It is a draw!!" My opponent was stunned only for about 3 seconds and then agreed to m,y offer of a draw.
Chess is very hard to win sometimes even with a nice material advantage. This, in itself, does not prove chess is a draw with best play---it is just one more piece of evidence.
Damn....How old are you now ? I thought this site was only filled up with 10 year olds.
Sep 12, 2020
0
#3734
Ibrahim240407 wrote:
People of any ages can use this website
Ya I know....but I generally see only these annoying 10 year olds here.....its the first time am seeing someone this elder .
Sep 12, 2020
0
#3736
Ibrahim240407 wrote:
Hey i am 13!!!
Plz dont call me annoying now ok.
Yeah me too
Lol not you....but there are kids who are really annoying....
Generally you will not find 10 year old's addressing the question of this forum. I am age 79 myself.
Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes!
Vishnusai25044 έγραψε:
"NO" because I have tried that with stockfish 12, and guess what ,WHITE WON AGAINST BLACK, so white will win, I have tried this 2 times, even though same results.
Congratulations. Now you have to set them play 10 million more games to have a sufficient statistical sample!
Yes it does. With best play, there is no first move advantage in checkers or tic tac toe. If someone makes the perfect first move in either game, and the response is perfect, and so on, the result is a tie. Best play (in those games) means there is no first move advantage. If there is not best play, then there can be a first move advantage.
But since we dont know what best play is in chess (both people and computers and people/computer combos) keep getting better the term best play keeps changing. What's best play one decade isn't best play decades later. A better way is found. There are all kinds of examples of perfection or best play that turned out to be false. Complicated endgames where there is a mate in a hundred moves or something. What was known to be a draw, turns out is actually a forced mate.
Just because you think you know something so very complicated doesn't mean you do. You have faith you do, I get it. But if history is any guide, often what someone knows to be true can often turn out completely opposite.