True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

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Ziryab
lfPatriotGames wrote:

I think there is a very high probability that most people here need to get out more often. 

 

Yep

Chessflyfisher
Ziryab wrote:
Chessflyfisher wrote:

Please, please, please stop continuing this ridiculous discussion. Chess is a draw with best play. The end. Move on!

 

Some people have time on their hands and a need to waste it.

These forums exist for that purpose. Fly fishing, of course, is a better way to waste time.

I am into that form of fishing as well!

Ziryab
Chessflyfisher wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
Chessflyfisher wrote:

Please, please, please stop continuing this ridiculous discussion. Chess is a draw with best play. The end. Move on!

 

Some people have time on their hands and a need to waste it.

These forums exist for that purpose. Fly fishing, of course, is a better way to waste time.

I am into that form of fishing as well!

 

I assumed as much because of your name. Do you tie your own?

ChophelChess

Chess is a draw with no play from either side.....

Ziryab
ChophelChess wrote:

Chess is a draw with no play from either side.....

 

I think that's a forfeit for the player on the move.

DiogenesDue
Ziryab wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

I think there is a very high probability that most people here need to get out more often. 

Yep

Almost universally true during the outbreak, one would think.  Not even really worth mentioning unless pointing at particular sets of people.

DiogenesDue
Ziryab wrote:
ChophelChess wrote:

Chess is a draw with no play from either side.....

I think that's a forfeit for the player on the move.

It could be an agreed draw with no advantage, which Ponz defines as a perfect game wink.png.

NikkiLikeChikki
Ten feet tall, eh? That analogy fails because we have a large sample of humans and relatively complete information.

A better analogy is that we live in a small, isolated village filled with a few hundred people of various shapes and sizes. One person in the village claims that he heard stories of ten foot tall people living in a land far away. Another says ridiculous, that’s impossible. Our tallest man is 6’5”!

They lack the technology to make any kind of verification so they argue pointlessly for 200+ forum pages.
Marks1420
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
Ten feet tall, eh? That analogy fails because we have a large sample of humans and relatively complete information.

A better analogy is that we live in a small, isolated village filled with a few hundred people of various shapes and sizes. One person in the village claims that he heard stories of ten foot tall people living in a land far away. Another says ridiculous, that’s impossible. Our tallest man is 6’5”!

They lack the technology to make any kind of verification so they argue pointlessly for 200+ forum pages.

This is actually hilarious 

NikkiLikeChikki
Yeah. People who say “that analogy fails” are suspicious. I mean just because one argument doesn’t resemble another doesn’t mean that hedgehogs can operate heavy machinery.
NikkiLikeChikki
Ridiculous. Given how short the hedgehog’s arms are, to proportionately have enough reach to grasp the controls, it would have to at least be ten feet tall.
Prometheus_Fuschs
Optimissed escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Optimissed escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
pfren escribió:
iicsa έγραψε:
pfren wrote:
iicsa έγραψε:

That is not an analogy.

 

Oh yes it is. There is not just a single proofing method in chess, as ell as several other sciences.

Squaring the circle is fairly easy, although not possible by using just classical geometry. 

No, it isn't an analogy.

If there is no proof, then you can't know if the claim 'chess is a draw' is true or false.

I think chess is a draw. But I have no proof, and neither does anyone else.

 

Ever heard about probabilistic arguments (which is what ponz is doing here)?

Mathematical approaches to such arguments like, say, Drake's Equation? No?

Oh my dear pfren, if only it was that simple. I'll remind you that even if an event A has probability 0*, it doesn't imply such event is impossible.

 

*No ifs and buts, it is exactly 0.

Probability zero doesn't imply impossibility. It directly means impossibility. However, the proviso is that the factors in play have been correctly identified and evaluated. In a complex model, of course that is unlikely. Generally, mathematics that describes the real world is a complex model.

If it means it is an impossibility (it isn't) then it implies itself, it's a tautology, it's just p <=> p

On another note, my comment was purely mathematical so you can cut the "factors" and "models" technobable there.

You must think you're very superior but everything I wrote was relevant and made sense. I know English may not be your first language but doesn't that mean you should be more careful in criticising something you don't understand?

I don't think I'm superior, I just think I actually know how probabilities work. Look, just grab any probability book (the Resnick is quite popular) and you'll see it's not a big deal.

 

Prediction: You won't cut back the technobable.

Prometheus_Fuschs
Optimissed escribió:

On another note, just reread my comment until it starts to make sense and then you'll have learned something. We're discussing the difference between notional impossibility and real impossibility. If a model coincides with reality then it's a duplicate of that reality (which is, itself, impossible) Therefore all information is bound to be incomplete. But all you are discussing is your notion of what that reality is and in a closed system, such as chess, the potential is there for accurate analysis. In that way, chess isn't "real" but "ideal". So we can work out that it isn't or is a draw, if we know how, and probability doesn't come into it.

Your subject may be maths but mine is logic and philosophy, which trumps maths, because all mathematics needs to be interpreted *verbally* or it's meaningless.

 

An event being impossible has a very precise mathematical definition. I could tell you what it is but then I suspect you'd not understand anything.

Prometheus_Fuschs
Optimissed escribió:

For that matter, it has a precise definition in Telugu. I'm fairly sure you wouldn't understand it.

And since we are talking about probabilities, a mathematical concept, it's irrelevant what it means in Telugu or any language for that matter.

Prometheus_Fuschs
Optimissed escribió:

Do try to stop being silly.

Do you want me to start proving citations for what I'm saying or will you remain adamant?

Prometheus_Fuschs

Prediction: When you realize you are saying malarkey, you just procede to insult.

Prometheus_Fuschs
Optimissed escribió:

Your problem, Prometheus, is that you don't realise mathematics is simply just another language that has to be verbally interpreted in order to have any meaning. For that matter, the same can be said for formal logic. You probably think mathematics is more precise than verbal languages but that isn't so, because mathematics would be meaningless without interpretation. Mathematics is simply more efficient than verbal languages in some applications and, of course, less efficient in others. You are concentrating on the positives rather heavily.

Suffice it to say, mathematical statements can be formalized to the point of being computer verified. Unless you think computers speak some verbal language, what you say is malarkey.

Prometheus_Fuschs
Optimissed escribió:

And furthermore, what do you imagine is "I could tell you what it is but then I suspect you'd not understand anything", if not an insult? It is, in fact, an admission of laziness at best and inability at the worst. You're out of your depth.

I'm honestly too busy to give you a crash course of probability spaces and measures but a simple example is the throwing of a dart. The probability of hiting a particular point on the dart board is cero, however, it's not impossible for the dart to land there, if it were then the dart would never land anywhere but it does.

Ziryab

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DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

You probably think mathematics is more precise than verbal languages but that isn't so, because mathematics would be meaningless without interpretation. Mathematics is simply more efficient than verbal languages in some applications and, of course, less efficient in others.

If by "more efficient" you mean more precise and not open to fuzzy interpretations, then yes...it's more efficient.  Your "probably think" premise does not match your "because" reasoning, which is par for the course for you.

When NASA was deciding what to put on the record of human civilization they put on Voyager I, they put some samples of human endeavors that are "interpretable", but to communicate anything precise, they used math:

https://www.space.com/38024-math-of-voyager-golden-record.html

They did this because your statement is full of crap wink.png.  Math precision != verbal language precision.