Hi Maradonna. How's kicks?
I didn't say work=sweat+pay; rather, t'other way 'round. It is not an all inclusive definition of work. Sometimes I get paid and don't sweat when I'm working. If you're sweating and getting paid for it, you're working.
BSRasmus: I wasn't discussing religion. I was discussing history.
No I mean why do you care so much what Carlsen does with his life? Are you his dad?
I wouldn't worry about it much. Tal was a drunk and a drug fiend and chess proceeded without even a hitch that I've ever noted.
Ok, if that's your opinion whatever, but if you're worried about how others view the chess world then it doesn't matter what your opinion is- but what theirs are. And, IMHO, I don't think that most people have such a negative view of modeling.
You called it a gentlemen/women's game; I took that as a definition of the players involved. And I gave you an explanation as to why I think my standards function better than yours. You're free to disagree.
I don't see the standard by which you have judged your morality to be superior to mine. I only see a naked assertion.
"Ideals may differ greatly from person to person, so it seems sensible to me to avoid restricting behaviour as much as possible, only when it can be reasonably said to harm others. Your way is too messy, frankly."
S'what I said. If you think it doesn't answer the question, go ahead and say so.
The pedophile could say the same thing. I'm not so sure that you'd agree that morality is relative when he said it, though. Seems to me that some people say that morality is relative *until people do things that offends them*. Then morality isn't so relative.
I'm not claiming morality is entirely relative; frankly, it annoys me when people say such things in order to avoid actually defending their own viewpoint.
What I would say is; I don't know if Carlsen modeling is good or bad for chess. I don't think anyone could possibly know, in fact. What I do know is that it does not directly harm me, or you, or anyone else in any tangible way (if you could proffer some evidence as to him representing a morally objectionable company, now that would be more interesting). I just cannot see the point of getting worked up about it.
Nope. Everything I've said in this thread has been entirely useless. But hey, it was a fun way to pass the time.
brasmus, You've got to be kidding me. There are plenty of Masters and Gramdmasters who are anything but gentlemen. You seem to have something against modelling in particular. What's wrong with putting on some clothes and having some pictures taken.
He was asked to do it BECAUSE of his Chess talent.
He's getting paid to do it.
Therefore his Chess talent is helping him to support himself at a very young age. More than I can say for most 19 year olds.
It costs a lot to travel to all these tournaments. His family has been very supportive and he has managed to get sponsorship. How is this any different from Tiger Woods doing endorsements? Is posing for a Tag Heuer commercial bad for golf?
Carlsen said himself that Chess is not his whole life. You seem to think he should be the typical boring, chess player with no life outside of Chess. It seems to me that he's having fun and enjoying his life while you're sitting at home judging him. He's 19 years old. he's obviously not of your generation, so don't expect him to live up to your outdated standards.
There are plenty of gentlemen who have posed for clothing companies. What's your problem with it? How does this make him any less of a gentleman? How does this ruin the image of Chess? I don't know if you've been paying attention but the image of Chess isn't that good outside of the Chess world. If anything, this could bring more mainstream appeal to the game.
Wouldn't it be nice if young girls, intrigued by his pictures, found out something about Chess and started playing? Or if young boys, realising that Chess can be "cool" shake off their notions of this seemingly "boring" game?
I know people who go into inner city schools to teach kids to play Chess. One of the biggest hurdles they face is that the kids are embarrassed to be seen by their peers playing Chess because it's seen as totally un-cool. A game only for nerds. They get teased. Don't you think that something like this would make the younger generation think twice about their notions of what a chess player is? He's not YOUR chess champion. He represents a NEW generation of chess player and more importantly, a new generation of human being.
It's a shame that your cultural bias is so profound that you denounce such a benign and harmless act as modelling. You are just as superficial as the stereotypical model himself if in your mind, simply taking some photos erases the respect you have for his brilliant Chess. He's still a brilliant Chess player, why can't you just respect him for that? Must he also share your cultural norms?
I see no reason why this would be a bad move for him. I'm surprised that a chess player of your calibre can't see that he has more than adequate compensation in return for sacrificing your precious respect for him.
If he was on the cover of GQ magazine, would you think differently?
It's not how you view chess that concerns me, frankly. I suspect that you are part of a minority of people that Carlsen would have a very hard time disappointing.
I suspect you're a failed model yourself. Is my suspicion more accurate than yours?
I thought Okolo's post was pretty good -- but bsrasmus is unfazed and simply considers it bad for chess. I think you guys are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
As for my POV, if Anand started modeling, ok I would find it odd so why with Carlsen do I not really care? He's not world champ yet, it's just now Ivanchuk has some competition for craziest off the board stuff lol and he's only 19 (and it helps pay the bills).
If he kept modeling even after winning the world championship... that can't be the most eccentric thing a world champ has done right? And I'm not clear on how it "hurts chess" Do you mean worldwide chess players will look at this and the game itself will lose interest and prestige? Do you think it will decrease members and tournaments or the image of the game to non-chess players?
On the contrary it could help build chess' image, and basically increase interest/participation/money/tournaments/ etc. I'm not so clear on how it's definitely a bad thing.
You just have so much vitriol for it, I had a feeling there was some rationalization going on there.
Anyway, I don't give a wet slap what Carlsen does, so its hard to feel stunned at the crippling blow that the chess world is sure to receive.
Do you think it would hurt the prestige of the United States if the U.S. President part-timed as a fashion model doing fashion shows? Or one of the candidates for President?
Clinton hurt the prestige of the United States when he talked about what kind of underwear he wore and when he decided to play the sax during his first run. Is there something wrong with playing the sax? Of course not. But there is a seriousness about the office of the presidency in which you shouldn't think of the man as an entertainer. When people come to accept the President as just a man then something intangible but valuable is lost in the institution and as a consequence the nation suffers a loss. Does it directly affect the individuals of the nation? Only in that they have lost that intangible and will likely never recover it. But that's something very important, IMO.
Of course the magnitude of the prestige of the presidency can't be compared to the much more limited prestige of the chess world championship. But the idea is the same. When one of the candidates to the world championship starts to demean himself like this, an intangible is lost with respect to the world championship that will likely never be recovered. The institution loses prestige. At least he isn't the world champion yet.
What's the reason for this?
What's the reason for this?
What do you mean by "this"?
cashew
Not so loud! Its a taboo word, don't you know?
I thought Okolo's post was pretty good -- but bsrasmus is unfazed and simply considers it bad for chess. I think you guys are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
As for my POV, if Anand started modeling, ok I would find it odd so why with Carlsen do I not really care? He's not world champ yet, it's just now Ivanchuk has some competition for craziest off the board stuff lol and he's only 19 (and it helps pay the bills).
If he kept modeling even after winning the world championship... that can't be the most eccentric thing a world champ has done right? And I'm not clear on how it "hurts chess" Do you mean worldwide chess players will look at this and the game itself will lose interest and prestige? Do you think it will decrease members and tournaments or the image of the game to non-chess players?
On the contrary it could help build chess' image, and basically increase interest/participation/money/tournaments/ etc. I'm not so clear on how it's definitely a bad thing.
Do you think it would hurt the prestige of the United States if the U.S. President part-timed as a fashion model doing fashion shows? Or one of the candidates for President?
Clinton hurt the prestige of the United States when he talked about what kind of underwear he wore and when he decided to play the sax during his first run. Is there something wrong with playing the sax? Of course not. But there is a seriousness about the office of the presidency in which you shouldn't think of the man as an entertainer. When people come to accept the President as just a man then something intangible but valuable is lost in the institution and as a consequence the nation suffers a loss. Does it directly affect the individuals of the nation? Only in that they have lost that intangible and will likely never recover it. But that's something very important, IMO.
Of course the magnitude of the prestige of the presidency can't be compared to the much more limited prestige of the chess world championship. But the idea is the same. When one of the candidates to the world championship starts to demean himself like this, an intangible is lost with respect to the world championship that will likely never be recovered. The institution loses prestige. At least he isn't the world champion yet.
Wow! Clinton playing the saxaphone hurt the office of the president? No point in arguing with you any further. Apparently people in your world have to stop being human when they attain high status or title. Enjoy your ordinary life. I'll go degrade myself with some dancing.
What's the reason for this?
What do you mean by "this"?
It's kind of ironic that supermodel Jesus, pictures and engravings of him everywhere on earth, somehow never degraded his...profession
What's the reason for this?
What do you mean by "this"?
It's kind of ironic that supermodel Jesus, pictures and engravings of him everywhere on earth, somehow never degraded his...profession
There are no pictures or engravings of Jesus. No one knows what he looked like.
There is ONE thing for sure in this life: EVERYONE knows what Jesus looks like!
Like I said, if you want to redefine the word "work", then fine. So that we can understand each other I will rephase: The models don't make any effort at what is being called a profession.
Who cares?