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What is the worst opening?

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CharlestonViennaGambit

And if Scholar's mate isn't an opening, then neither is Fool's Mate.

AZPawnstar
CharlestonViennaGambit wrote:
Lord_Phan wrote:

If a player blunders that is not a trap. Fool's mate is an opening. You didn't set up a trap, you just played the best move checkmating them. That is why g4 f3 or vice versa is the worst opening for white and g5 f6 for black. You expose the King. Doesn't GM Finegold always say, "Never play f3".

But it IS technically a trap, so not an opening.

sorry. but no one agrees with you.

Lord_Phan

An opening is the first moves you play, f3 g4 is the worst opening. It puts you immediately in fool's mate against anyone who isn't a beginner.

CharlestonViennaGambit

You aren't understanding.

AZ, that was rude. How dare you!

Lord Phan, first of all, you might have overlooked everything I said. Second, refresh your definition of "opening" please.

I am not looking for two votes. I am looking for the majority. What about the Damiano defense? You could get checkmated there!

borovicka75
If fools mate is an opening, there is nothing more to talk about. If it is not an opening, so what is definition of an opening?
LEGENDARY_SHADOW_GOD
CharlestonViennaGambit wrote:

By that logic, Scholar's Mate would be an opening. But it isn't.

it is technically speaking

CharlestonViennaGambit

An opening is a variation of a chess game that doesn't lead to checkmate in itself, but rather the middlegame or the endgame, or a draw there.

An opening trap, on the other hand, DOES lead to checkmate in the opening.

Do you get me?

AZPawnstar
CharlestonViennaGambit wrote:

An opening is a variation of a chess game that doesn't lead to checkmate in itself, but rather the middlegame or the endgame, or a draw there.

An opening trap, on the other hand, DOES lead to checkmate in the opening.

Do you get me?

fool's mate does NOT lead to checkmate in the opening. it is completely reliant on an unforced blunder that is unrelated to the 'trap.' do you get me?

moxnix22

Which is the worst opening? depends by whatever arbitrary metric you set. What counts as an opening and why for our purposes. Once you have the criteria you can math it out. Say you want the stockfish evaluation to be your metric and book moves count as an opening you take every book move marked by chess.com then take the last move position in all of them dump into engine and look for worst evaluation. Without any objective criteria though its just opinions. So I think it makes more sense to agree on this objective criteria otherwise all discussion will just devolve into Each person citing their own interpretation of what they think counts as an opening. So even withd this sentence lets assume we all agree your statement that "An opening is a variation of a chess game that doesn't lead to checkmate in itself, but rather the middlegame or the endgame, or a draw there."

So I don't think many people would agree with this as a general rule as that's not how most people think about it. How do we then determine it does not lead to checkmate? Stockfish vs Stockfish in Grob is more often a loss than a draw in high level engine play so in that way it does lead to mate. If 1.3 is typically mate does that mean an opening with +3 is obviously to mate? If no and it must be brute forced at what depth can I use table bases like in an ICCF match? If we make it so we have to brute force and we are not sure of the outcome isn't that then circular logic? As in if we don't know the outcome we cant really say its worse without a metric to measure the position. No matter what metric you decide to use the odds of the one defense your fixated on being the worst is pretty much impossible without intentionally setting the metrics in such a way to achieve that goal. From the computes perspective it doesn't matter if you play f5 or f6 there stockfish will still win the .3 more for white with f6 is irrelevant to the outcome. How many moves deep with each choice do we go some book moves fog 11 moves deep. The reverse borg E4 g5 stockfish says is a few centipawns worse than yours and that's only 1 move a player. From the same position Nh6 instead of f6 is also about .10 centipawns worse with the same knight captures line. In fact almost any move that hangs the pawn is about the same the f pawn moving isn't even why its so bad its the fact the e pawn still hangs. Its not much different than ross gambit just gambiting the e pawn on move 1. Heck you could play hanging the queen move 2 and its not forced mate any less than the grob is if your using an engine to prove it. Which is why I think you need a good metric for what your really asking here. I've seen positions with evaluations of -12 that are drawn with horizon effect so without a brute force solution any postion that cant be brute forced into a table base is the same. If we want a human metric the best one is database win rates from real games.

supercoolguy2000

Damiano is not the worst, its only +1.7 ish if black knows not to accept the knight sac and knows theory and plays Qe7. There were actual GMs who specialized in Damiano

borovicka75
Which gm specialize in Damiano?
supercoolguy2000
borovicka75 wrote:
Which gm specialize in Damiano?

Chigorin used to play it against other masters

chessjess16

The grob opening

fred1259

Fools mate

Amin-the-great

According to stockfish,it's grob opening,and the second one is barnes opening. Both make you ready for fools mate

MikviPl

fred gambit

1.e4 f5

2.exf5 Kf7??

it's +6 for white if he knows what to do

fred1259

I am fred and I not bad in my opening

CharlestonViennaGambit
fred1259 wrote:

I am fred and I not bad in my opening

Just because the opening has your name in it does NOT mean that it is your opening.