Who was the all time best

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motofini

Lasker and Kasparov held the title for many years.

Kasparov did it it against more titled players in an era where technique is much more refined.

fyy0r
dannyhume wrote:Spassky really suffers on this one, because he could have beaten Fischer on forfeit by not acquiescing to Fischer's demands and then said "yeah he hasn't yet beaten me, that's why he is a little whiny b!+c# about these petty demands" and people would have to accept that Spassky was the legitimate champion for at least a second term.

 

I don't think people realize how big of a gentleman Spassky was.  He deeply respected Fischer, even though Fischer never really returned that respect.  Spassky could have retained the title before their 1972 match even begun by simply walking away from it because of all the complaining Fischer did.  Not only that but he had ANOTHER chance when the 3rd game started in the small room away from the cameras, where Fischer was still complaining.  Deep down Spassky knew he was going to lose the match, and that was all the better to him I think because he didn't really seem too concerned with retaining the title.  Karpov helped him train before the match and said most of the time he would just play tennis and go swimming.

Then in their 1992 rematch Spassky had a chance to beat Fischer in game 6 which would have been his third win in a row because he won games 4 and 5 as well.  Spassky decided to draw game 6 "for the sake of Fischer's return" so Fischer wouldn't get too frustrated and abandon the match, because after losing games 4 and 5 he started showing the signs of old Fischer and was beginning to make demands again.  After the draw he then lost 3 games in a row to Fischer.  Kasparov felt this was a sign of Spassky's "magnanimity".

Spassky really liked Fischer.  He was less concerned about chess and more concerned with helping someone who he felt was his friend, and if he could make a little money from the matches, all the better.

raul72
fyy0r wrote:
dannyhume wrote:Spassky really suffers on this one, because he could have beaten Fischer on forfeit by not acquiescing to Fischer's demands and then said "yeah he hasn't yet beaten me, that's why he is a little whiny b!+c# about these petty demands" and people would have to accept that Spassky was the legitimate champion for at least a second term.

 

I don't think people realize how big of a gentleman Spassky was.  He deeply respected Fischer, even though Fischer never really returned that respect.  Spassky could have retained the title before their 1972 match even begun by simply walking away from it because of all the complaining Fischer did.  Not only that but he had ANOTHER chance when the 3rd game started in the small room away from the cameras, where Fischer was still complaining.  Deep down Spassky knew he was going to lose the match, and that was all the better to him I think because he didn't really seem too concerned with retaining the title.  Karpov helped him train before the match and said most of the time he would just play tennis and go swimming.

Then in their 1992 rematch Spassky had a chance to beat Fischer in game 6 which would have been his third win in a row because he won games 4 and 5 as well.  Spassky decided to draw game 6 "for the sake of Fischer's return" so Fischer wouldn't get too frustrated and abandon the match, because after losing games 4 and 5 he started showing the signs of old Fischer and was beginning to make demands again.  After the draw he then lost 3 games in a row to Fischer.  Kasparov felt this was a sign of Spassky's "magnaminity".

Spassky really liked Fischer.  He was less concerned about chess and more concerned with helping someone who he felt was his friend, and if he could make a little money from the matches, all the better.


Spassky loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

Karpov loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

Kasparov loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

And all the other chess millionaires love Fischer---he made them millionaires.

Fischer was the most beloved chessplayer who ever lived despite some minor character flawsSmile

dannyhume
Reb wrote:

I used to feel this way too about Alekhine's refusal to grant Capablanca a rematch. I no longer feel that way after reading Kasparov's  " My Great Predecessors " books. What happened is that Capablanca made Alekhine jump through all sorts of hoops to play the match with him and so when Alekhine won the title all he did was insist that now Capablanca now had to jump through the same hoops that he did and the great Cuban was either unwilling, or unable, to do so !  I no longer blame Alekhine after learning of this..... 


I have Edgar Winter's book Capablanca and look forward to reading it since it is heavily documented and touches on their relationship.   I guess I'd make somebody else jump through the same hoops if I had to go through them myself.

Now how did Euwe, Bugolbujow and other challengers get preference over Capablanca or did they have to jump through equivalent hoops?  Otherwise it does make it look like Alekhine cherry-picked opponents regardless of whether his hoops were fair in relation to Capa's hoops for him in 1927.

And how/why did Euwe grant a quick rematch to Alekhine?

batgirl

Good ol' Edgar!
:-D

Tricklev
dannyhume wrote:
Reb wrote:

I used to feel this way too about Alekhine's refusal to grant Capablanca a rematch. I no longer feel that way after reading Kasparov's  " My Great Predecessors " books. What happened is that Capablanca made Alekhine jump through all sorts of hoops to play the match with him and so when Alekhine won the title all he did was insist that now Capablanca now had to jump through the same hoops that he did and the great Cuban was either unwilling, or unable, to do so !  I no longer blame Alekhine after learning of this..... 


I have Edgar Winter's book Capablanca and look forward to reading it since it is heavily documented and touches on their relationship.   I guess I'd make somebody else jump through the same hoops if I had to go through them myself.

Now how did Euwe, Bugolbujow and other challengers get preference over Capablanca or did they have to jump through equivalent hoops?  Otherwise it does make it look like Alekhine cherry-picked opponents regardless of whether his hoops were fair in relation to Capa's hoops for him in 1927.

And how/why did Euwe grant a quick rematch to Alekhine?

If I remember correctly, when Capablanca was WC they drew up what was come to be known as the London agreement, where they basicly determined how much the challenger would have to bring in terms of finance, that it was first to 6 wins and so forth, in case of the challengers succes, the champion had the right to a rematch during the same circumstances.

 

Once Alekhine won, people lost faith in the london agreement, especially Capablanca, who didn't have the endurance to play such a potentially long and drawn out match. After that Alekhine took matches under different circumstances, but he was intent that Capablanca had to challenge him after the London agreement, since that was the circumstances he had to challenge Capablanca under.

 

Now I might be completely off, but I think it was something like this.

batgirl
nathandewinter wrote:

capablanca could play without thinking


Big deal.  I do that all the time.

fyy0r
raul72 wrote:
fyy0r wrote:
dannyhume wrote:Spassky really suffers on this one, because he could have beaten Fischer on forfeit by not acquiescing to Fischer's demands and then said "yeah he hasn't yet beaten me, that's why he is a little whiny b!+c# about these petty demands" and people would have to accept that Spassky was the legitimate champion for at least a second term.

 

I don't think people realize how big of a gentleman Spassky was.  He deeply respected Fischer, even though Fischer never really returned that respect.  Spassky could have retained the title before their 1972 match even begun by simply walking away from it because of all the complaining Fischer did.  Not only that but he had ANOTHER chance when the 3rd game started in the small room away from the cameras, where Fischer was still complaining.  Deep down Spassky knew he was going to lose the match, and that was all the better to him I think because he didn't really seem too concerned with retaining the title.  Karpov helped him train before the match and said most of the time he would just play tennis and go swimming.

Then in their 1992 rematch Spassky had a chance to beat Fischer in game 6 which would have been his third win in a row because he won games 4 and 5 as well.  Spassky decided to draw game 6 "for the sake of Fischer's return" so Fischer wouldn't get too frustrated and abandon the match, because after losing games 4 and 5 he started showing the signs of old Fischer and was beginning to make demands again.  After the draw he then lost 3 games in a row to Fischer.  Kasparov felt this was a sign of Spassky's "magnaminity".

Spassky really liked Fischer.  He was less concerned about chess and more concerned with helping someone who he felt was his friend, and if he could make a little money from the matches, all the better.


Spassky loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

Karpov loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

Kasparov loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

And all the other chess millionaires love Fischer---he made them millionaires.

Fischer was the most beloved chessplayer who ever lived despite some minor character flaws


 

You are so biased toward Fischer, there are other chess players too you know. Tongue out

marcelom2

i am like capablanca, i play whitout thinkTongue out

marcelom2

now seriusly: it could be a good idea to vote the best player, but i do not knowhow to do that,

can someone do it?

raul72
fyy0r wrote:
raul72 wrote:
fyy0r wrote:
dannyhume wrote:Spassky really suffers on this one, because he could have beaten Fischer on forfeit by not acquiescing to Fischer's demands and then said "yeah he hasn't yet beaten me, that's why he is a little whiny b!+c# about these petty demands" and people would have to accept that Spassky was the legitimate champion for at least a second term.

 

I don't think people realize how big of a gentleman Spassky was.  He deeply respected Fischer, even though Fischer never really returned that respect.  Spassky could have retained the title before their 1972 match even begun by simply walking away from it because of all the complaining Fischer did.  Not only that but he had ANOTHER chance when the 3rd game started in the small room away from the cameras, where Fischer was still complaining.  Deep down Spassky knew he was going to lose the match, and that was all the better to him I think because he didn't really seem too concerned with retaining the title.  Karpov helped him train before the match and said most of the time he would just play tennis and go swimming.

Then in their 1992 rematch Spassky had a chance to beat Fischer in game 6 which would have been his third win in a row because he won games 4 and 5 as well.  Spassky decided to draw game 6 "for the sake of Fischer's return" so Fischer wouldn't get too frustrated and abandon the match, because after losing games 4 and 5 he started showing the signs of old Fischer and was beginning to make demands again.  After the draw he then lost 3 games in a row to Fischer.  Kasparov felt this was a sign of Spassky's "magnaminity".

Spassky really liked Fischer.  He was less concerned about chess and more concerned with helping someone who he felt was his friend, and if he could make a little money from the matches, all the better.


Spassky loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

Karpov loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

Kasparov loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

And all the other chess millionaires love Fischer---he made them millionaires.

Fischer was the most beloved chessplayer who ever lived despite some minor character flaws


 

You are so biased toward Fischer, there are other chess players too you know. 


 Biased? Are you kidding me fella. If I was living in dreary, dark, impoverished Russia---destitute, broke, barely getting by---and somebody made me a millionaire---I would love the guy. And if I was a girl I would love him even more.Kiss

Just think , you're Ralph Cramden trying to scratch up a little cash to take Alice to the movies and then POOF!---your prince William with the beautiful Catherine at your side and people are throwing  golden nuggets at your feet.

You dont go bowling anymore---you go down to your basement where you have your own bowling alley. You dont go to the movies---you go to your movie room! You have the best chef living in your mansion. You invite the president over for tea. And who do you love for this Life of Riley existence---Bobby, Bobby, Bobby. Wait, I'll say it one more time--- Robert. To accept his largesse is to love the guy.  

I'm willing for you to tell me, I'm waiting for you to tell me, I'm wanting you to tell me--- Who wouldn't love RJF.

kco

FBI

calzadilla

Thank,  Ruthus for your contribution , I’m totally agree .  I’m   remembering the tournament again Spaski. In Cuba what Fisher did  was hilarious.

dannyhume
raul72 wrote:
 Biased? Are you kidding me fella. If I was living in dreary, dark, impoverished Russia---destitute, broke, barely getting by---and somebody made me a millionaire---I would love the guy. And if I was a girl I would love him even more.  Just think , you're Ralph Cramden trying to scratch up a little cash to take Alice to the movies and then POOF!---your prince William with the beautiful Catherine at your side and people are throwing  golden nuggets at your feet.

You dont go bowling anymore---you go down to your basement where you have your own bowling alley. You dont go to the movies---you go to your movie room! You have the best chef living in your mansion. You invite the president over for tea. And who do you love for this Life of Riley existence---Bobby, Bobby, Bobby. Wait, I'll say it one more time--- Robert. To accept his largesse is to love the guy.  

I'm willing for you to tell me, I'm waiting for you to tell me, I'm wanting you to tell me--- Who wouldn't love RJF.


I now see clearly why I don't like Fischer...he hasn't made me a millionaire.  Therefore, he is the greatest.  That works.   I am convinced.   And caldazilla's mention of "Fischer", "Cuba" ( =  Capablanca) and "hilarious" in one sentence -now I am connecting the dots...Capablanca, dead in 1942, reincarnated as Fischer, born in 1943.  And who died just a few years before Capa was born?  Paul Charles.  Now I like Fischer.  Still not a f----ng millionaire.

marcelom2

bobby fischer made us all millonaires... of precious chess moves

Archaic71

This is my new all time favorite thread.

For the record, the comparisons truely are all BS.  It's like comparing atheletes of different generations.  You cab subjectively say that so-and-so dominated in the 1950s, but that has no relevance today. 

Capa and Morphy with access to databases, computers, easy travel, ICC, etc. might have been able to surpass what Vishy and Garry did - or, they might have gave up chess in highschool and ended up as insurance agents.

selfmate

Perhaps some day soon we'll be able to answer this question.

There have been efforts recently to analyze the games of the great players of  history using computer engines to determine who played best.

There are pitfalls in trying to do this, and the work that has been done so far isn't entirely convincing to me. But, if the question is answerable at all, it seems likely computer analysis will eventually be the way it does get answered.

dannyhume

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25279408/Jose-Raul-Capablanca-Cuban-World-Chess-Champion

Capa sure as hell would be the best insurance salesman.  Regardless of what he does or say, regardless of how far back you see his sales pitch coming, you still somehow lose your money is such an elegant and simple manner.

morteza_mz87

Spassky

fyy0r
raul72 wrote:
fyy0r wrote:
raul72 wrote:
fyy0r wrote:
dannyhume wrote:Spassky really suffers on this one, because he could have beaten Fischer on forfeit by not acquiescing to Fischer's demands and then said "yeah he hasn't yet beaten me, that's why he is a little whiny b!+c# about these petty demands" and people would have to accept that Spassky was the legitimate champion for at least a second term.

 

I don't think people realize how big of a gentleman Spassky was.  He deeply respected Fischer, even though Fischer never really returned that respect.  Spassky could have retained the title before their 1972 match even begun by simply walking away from it because of all the complaining Fischer did.  Not only that but he had ANOTHER chance when the 3rd game started in the small room away from the cameras, where Fischer was still complaining.  Deep down Spassky knew he was going to lose the match, and that was all the better to him I think because he didn't really seem too concerned with retaining the title.  Karpov helped him train before the match and said most of the time he would just play tennis and go swimming.

Then in their 1992 rematch Spassky had a chance to beat Fischer in game 6 which would have been his third win in a row because he won games 4 and 5 as well.  Spassky decided to draw game 6 "for the sake of Fischer's return" so Fischer wouldn't get too frustrated and abandon the match, because after losing games 4 and 5 he started showing the signs of old Fischer and was beginning to make demands again.  After the draw he then lost 3 games in a row to Fischer.  Kasparov felt this was a sign of Spassky's "magnaminity".

Spassky really liked Fischer.  He was less concerned about chess and more concerned with helping someone who he felt was his friend, and if he could make a little money from the matches, all the better.


Spassky loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

Karpov loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

Kasparov loves Fischer. Fischer made him a millionaire.

And all the other chess millionaires love Fischer---he made them millionaires.

Fischer was the most beloved chessplayer who ever lived despite some minor character flaws


 

You are so biased toward Fischer, there are other chess players too you know. 


 Biased? Are you kidding me fella. If I was living in dreary, dark, impoverished Russia---destitute, broke, barely getting by---and somebody made me a millionaire---I would love the guy. And if I was a girl I would love him even more.

Just think , you're Ralph Cramden trying to scratch up a little cash to take Alice to the movies and then POOF!---your prince William with the beautiful Catherine at your side and people are throwing  golden nuggets at your feet.

You dont go bowling anymore---you go down to your basement where you have your own bowling alley. You dont go to the movies---you go to your movie room! You have the best chef living in your mansion. You invite the president over for tea. And who do you love for this Life of Riley existence---Bobby, Bobby, Bobby. Wait, I'll say it one more time--- Robert. To accept his largesse is to love the guy.  

I'm willing for you to tell me, I'm waiting for you to tell me, I'm wanting you to tell me--- Who wouldn't love RJF.


 

I hope everyone loves Fischer, but I think the time of millionaires in chess is over.  Karpov and Kasparov profited a bit though.  But I hope those who love Fischer love him for his obsession for chess, and the results that obsession brought him in tournaments and matches, not the money.

Every potential World Champion has a gift though, so we must look at them all.  That is what I mean to you.  Tongue out