Why are speedruns even allowed?

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Avatar of Ubik42
Ziryab absolutely correct neither of us hate blitz, it’s just not effective for teaching beginners who are still at the point of leaving their queens en prise.

Most kids games without a clock look a lot like blitz with a clock.

I think an otb tournament with 400 kids and G/5 would be organizationally a disaster, with most of time spent waiting between rounds for new pairings but go for it if you want to organize one.

You can do them online with everyone at their own home but that isn’t the same type of experience as a communal otb tournament. I don’t think it will be nearly as much fun for the kids, but of course during covid options are limited.
Avatar of Ziryab
Ubik42 wrote:


I think an otb tournament with 400 kids and G/5 would be organizationally a disaster, with most of time spent waiting between rounds for new pairings but go for it if you want to organize one.


 

With 900-1400, as our state event typically draws, the facility is everything. We use large convention centers which we rent for one day for $25K.

There is usually an hour between rounds one and two, and half an hour between subsequent rounds. In 2018 and 2019, we ran a tight schedule and kept it. Kudos to Rick, who doesn't even play chess, but who is a terrific organizer.

Avatar of Ubik42
Wow, yeah all of the events I sign the kids up for are at schools. 400 is about the maximum a big school can handle, and most schools cap sign ups at less than that.

It has to be a labor of love to organize these things because it is controlled chaos at best.

I remember one of the first tournaments I got the kids to and they had a problem with the fire alarm going off repeatedly. It was december and most of us not dressed for extended stays outside. They had to cut the games to 4 instead of 5. One of my kids only needed 4 games to take clear first, he was a monster at the board. Still is.
Avatar of USArmyParatrooper

I watch a lot of Hikaru Nakamura speed runs on YouTube. He just casually plows through patzers like me, and even IMs and GMs while he "blah blah blah" talks about society and stock options with his followers. It's really a sight to see.

Avatar of USArmyParatrooper
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:

I watch a lot of Hikaru Nakamura speed runs on YouTube. He just casually plows through patzers like me, and even IMs and GMs while he "blah blah blah" talks about society and stock options with his followers. It's really a sight to see.

sounds like a real "education".   I love when he starts screaming "we got a rage quitter"  with his sociopathic laugh.  A great example for all the children.

That may have happened in one of his videos, but I never saw it. He has a lot of Hikaru-isms, like "should be winning" and "Oh no did I just blunder?" but I've never seen him act childish.

Avatar of USArmyParatrooper
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:

I watch a lot of Hikaru Nakamura speed runs on YouTube. He just casually plows through patzers like me, and even IMs and GMs while he "blah blah blah" talks about society and stock options with his followers. It's really a sight to see.

sounds like a real "education".   I love when he starts screaming "we got a rage quitter"  with his sociopathic laugh.  A great example for all the children.

That may have happened in one of his videos, but I never saw it. He has a lot of Hikaru-isms, like "should be winning" and "Oh no did I just blunder?" but I've never seen him act childish.

One of his latest titles was "Ripping the rating away from the 1200s"   I mean jeez.  What a message to send to people.  So sporting...

I just tried to search for it on YouTube. Can you link me to that one? He has a lot of hyperbolic titles, some of them self deprecating.

Avatar of USArmyParatrooper
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:

I watch a lot of Hikaru Nakamura speed runs on YouTube. He just casually plows through patzers like me, and even IMs and GMs while he "blah blah blah" talks about society and stock options with his followers. It's really a sight to see.

sounds like a real "education".   I love when he starts screaming "we got a rage quitter"  with his sociopathic laugh.  A great example for all the children.

That may have happened in one of his videos, but I never saw it. He has a lot of Hikaru-isms, like "should be winning" and "Oh no did I just blunder?" but I've never seen him act childish.

One of his latest titles was "Ripping the rating away from the 1200s"   I mean jeez.  What a message to send to people.  So sporting...

I just tried to search for it on YouTube. Can you link me to that one? He has a lot of hyperbolic titles, some of them self deprecating.

He might of removed it or changed the title.  I only see 
insults the 1200s"  or "bullies the 1100s"   thats the education he is giving the kids.  be a bully and insult people through rating manipulation.  nice.  Well done chess.com.

I mentioned the "ripping the rating away from teh 1200s" previously on here And I swear he reads this thread because after ziryab made his comment doubting super gms would play rating 400 players.  he literally posted the 400 video an hour later proving me right.  lol

i don't know if the coaches on here would agree with me,  but its pretty much common sports sense that these guys playing people too far below their level are lessening their own potential skills.  Its not a good idea if they truly want to continue to be professional players like Daniel Narditzky has said he still wants to do to Maurice in an interview after his last OTB tourney.    Its literally a bad idea not only for the community but for them as well.   Even coaching people too far below your level is not a good idea for them.

Honestly, I have a different take. It's only click bait titles. For starters, these speed runs don't hurt their rating. They get the points back, and the runs are approved by chess.com.

But also I've never seen Hikaru mistreat someone he's playing against. You can see lots of videos of him playing regular people face to face. Usually he gives himself 1:00 and the other player 5:00, and he's always fun and gracious to them. After the match he'll explain to them what they could have done better.

As for the click bait titles, it's just click bait. He's first and foremost a streamer. It's how he makes his money. It's like sometimes pro basketball players will play regular people for content. I don't think anyone would be offended by a video titled, "Steph Curry destroys street baller" or something similar.

Avatar of USArmyParatrooper
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:

I watch a lot of Hikaru Nakamura speed runs on YouTube. He just casually plows through patzers like me, and even IMs and GMs while he "blah blah blah" talks about society and stock options with his followers. It's really a sight to see.

sounds like a real "education".   I love when he starts screaming "we got a rage quitter"  with his sociopathic laugh.  A great example for all the children.

That may have happened in one of his videos, but I never saw it. He has a lot of Hikaru-isms, like "should be winning" and "Oh no did I just blunder?" but I've never seen him act childish.

One of his latest titles was "Ripping the rating away from the 1200s"   I mean jeez.  What a message to send to people.  So sporting...

I just tried to search for it on YouTube. Can you link me to that one? He has a lot of hyperbolic titles, some of them self deprecating.

He might of removed it or changed the title.  I only see 
insults the 1200s"  or "bullies the 1100s"   thats the education he is giving the kids.  be a bully and insult people through rating manipulation.  nice.  Well done chess.com.

I mentioned the "ripping the rating away from teh 1200s" previously on here And I swear he reads this thread because after ziryab made his comment doubting super gms would play rating 400 players.  he literally posted the 400 video an hour later proving me right.  lol

i don't know if the coaches on here would agree with me,  but its pretty much common sports sense that these guys playing people too far below their level are lessening their own potential skills.  Its not a good idea if they truly want to continue to be professional players like Daniel Narditzky has said he still wants to do to Maurice in an interview after his last OTB tourney.    Its literally a bad idea not only for the community but for them as well.   Even coaching people too far below your level is not a good idea for them.

Honestly, I have a different take. It's only click bait titles. For starters, these speed runs don't hurt their rating. They get the points back, and the runs are approved by chess.com.

But also I've never seen Hikaru mistreat someone he's playing against. You can see lots of videos of him playing regular people face to face. Usually he gives himself 1:00 and the other player 5:00, and he's always fun and gracious to them. After the match he'll explain to them what they could have done better.

As for the click bait titles, it's just click bait. He's first and foremost a streamer. It's how he makes his money. It's like sometimes pro basketball players will play regular people for content. I don't think anyone would be offended by a video titled, "Steph Curry destroys street baller" or something similar.

These guys are leading by example.   So the click bait titles,  the fact they are speed running.  It literally encourages all those things from others.  People also take things literally which is evident by alot of forum threads on this site.   Half the people here are kids.   The fact multiple accounts are so acceptable in this community even though its against TOS i feel can be attributed to these facts.

Hikaru is literally the least liked pro in the industry among his peers for how he treats people.  He literally treats his stepfather and brother like complete strangers to the point he seems sociopathic.  There has been so much controversy surrounding him its probably historical at this point.  There are so many examples like how he treated Chessbrah after the guy flagged him in a match.   It became so dramatic for a while that even Daniel Narditzky felt the need to chime in and post a whole essay online about how he was wrong to act how he as acting.   There was even controversy surrounding his manager and twitch mod.  You seem like you don't know anything about this community?  Are you really even a fan of this guy?  lol

Just to be clear I don't even have anything against HIkaru and I'm a fan myself.  I think he does do alot for the sport.   I'm just telling it like it is.  And he is definitely not the only one who speedruns.  I don't want to make the thread about him.  He is simply an example, a symptom of a problem but not the cause.    I just wish chess.com will realize what lichess.org did and why they no longer make no exceptions for speedrunning and why they even repeatedly ban super gm's for doing it.  As they even state themselves in their TOS promotes dishonesty within the community period.  You are simply in denial about it.  

I'm not here as a paying subscriber so he can make money by promoting poor sportsmanship in the community. period. Stephen Curry is not literally playing in community rated matches where people subscribe with the promise of competitive matchups.  What a terrible and desperately flawed analogy.   Are you trolling me?

I'm not aware of any of the drama you're talking about. I only go by what I've seen. When he plays regular people, he treats them well and he seems like a nice guy. Here's another video with a click bait title. I just don't make a thing of it.

As for speed runs, I don't know what to tell you. I just don't see it as a big deal. My chess.com rating means nothing to me, and honestly, if I found out in one of my games I unknowingly got trounced by a super GM I would laugh about it.

Do you have a problem with how Hikaru conducted himself here? It's just one of many, many similar examples.

Avatar of USArmyParatrooper
CooloutAC wrote:

That video is irrelevant.  And yes you've made it clear you don't care about speedrunners.  And I don't care about my rating either,  the rating is also irrelevant.  Its about the fact I'm subscribing with the promise of competitive matchups,  and the fact the site allows these people to undermine that to make money on twitch.  Its the fact as others have even provided examples of in this thread,  that encourages others to do the same unofficially.  Its the fact that the twitch community encourages people to use multiple accounts which is against TOS.   And imo,  thats why this site is infested with new accounts and the matchups are terrible at my level,  compared to a site with lichess.org which was a big revelation for me.   You see nothing wrong with that,  thats great.  You definitely have no sports sense and are not competitive. 

The promise of competitive chess? You have it. What do you think the statistical probability is that you play a random game, and it just happens to be a super GM smurf account? I have no idea but it's got to be well under 1%.

As for whether they're encouraging multiple accounts, I don't know that they're really having that effect. And if they are, how does that affect me? If a 1600 player has 5 accounts and I'm playing one of them, why should I care? It's against the rules, yes. But as a player, does it affect me in some way?

Avatar of USArmyParatrooper
CooloutAC wrote:

Have you paid attention to anything I've said?  Everyone arguing with me is so pigeon holed and brainwashed to believeing i'm complaining about rating points, or actually believing i'm playing one of these speedrunning titled players.  lol.    Once again,  it encourages others to do it unofficially,  People imitate them because they are leading by example and want to be like them.  People are banned for it all the time, there are threads promoting it.    Even people who don't speedrun are making multiple accounts because its considered acceptable and fashionable within the community.     Are you really not reading anything i've been saying and just trolling me? 

And even if none of it affects me directly,  its immoral and corrupt and its probably borderline against the law what they are doing.  Even if it doesn't affect me,  it shouldn't be allowed to affect anyone at any time, especially paying members. period.  Did the army not teach you honor?  You think that is an honorable and acceptable thing to be teaching the kids of the community?  That is something you condone with a clean heart?   20,000 people and 9 titled players were banned this month alone.  I bet that number would be alot lower if speedrunning wasn't allowed.

Don't be so dramatic. First of all it isn't even remotely a legal issue, let alone being "borderline illegal."

Second of all, one does not need to be "brainwashed" to disagree with you.

Also, I can't speak for anyone else. But the handful of streamers I watch who do speed runs do NOT encourage others to do it. They explicitly explain that they are given special privileges, and that it violates the rules for others to do it. If you've watched a GM encourage players to break the rules, then yes, that is wrong.

Does them doing speed runs (alone) encourage players who are not allowed to violate the rules by making multiple accounts? I honestly don't know. But just say they are, I don't see why I should get my panties in a twist over it. That's chess.com's problem. It doesn't adversely affect players.

Avatar of USArmyParatrooper

1. You acknowledged that the statistical chances you end up playing a super GM is extremely remote, so how are your matches not competitive?

2. When I responded to the OP, and up until now, literally the only previous post I read is the OP. So it's impossible for me to just be repeating everyone else's rhetoric.

3. You (seemed) to imply they are actively encouraging others to do it, e.g. "hey guys, you should make alternate accounts as well." You should be more clear if they're not doing that.

I don't doubt people on here have multiple accounts. I also don't doubt that it's common. Just, your claim that super GM's doing speed runs makes it worse by a non-trivial margin is conjecture at this point. It may. Just claims need evidence.

The GM streamers who do it ARE NOT BREAKING TOS. They are given explicit permission by chess.com to do it.

Avatar of USArmyParatrooper
CooloutAC wrote:

1.  why does that matter?  Again,  have you read anything i've said?  how many times do I have to explan it?

 

2.   I read the whole thread.  Are you too lazy to do the same?  Then maybe you wouldn't sound so clueless when posting on the subject of this thread. 

 

3.   Yes.  Literally.  in those exact words.  What don't you understand.  Yes!  They will literally tell people they should do that for "learning" purposes.   They will talk about how they have multiple accounts themselves when according to TOS they are only allowed one.   They will interact with people in the chat saying they do the same thing and they will applaud them for it.  YES.  

 

Its common sense though.  Its human nature.  You seem to have no understanding of it.  

Again,  try to pay very close attention.  because I've already said this 3 time to you,  but apparently i'm talking to a robot.    THEY ARE ONLY ALLOWED ONE TRAINING ACCOUNT,  BUT THEY TALK ON STREAM ABOUT HAVING MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS BREAKING TOS!!


And if you want proof go watch chessbrah's latest twitch stream he did this morning.  You don't have to look very far.  that's how common it is.  You're in denial.

Breaking TOS! Well since you used giant, bold letters then you must be right. Unless....

Before I address the rest of your post, will you concede that you were wrong about them breaking TOS?

https://support.chess.com/article/596-can-i-have-multiple-accounts

Can I have multiple accounts?

No, not only do we not allow the use of multiple accounts; we also consider it a form of cheating.

Please restrict yourself to a single Chess.com account, and avoid all suspicion!

If it's just a new username you are after, please see here

But what about streamers? 

If you've watched the popular chess streamers for any amount of time, I'm sure you've seen at least one of them doing a 'speed run' using a new account to climb the ratings as quickly as possible. 

This kind of thing is normally not allowed and is a form of cheating we call 'rating manipulation' or 'sandbagging.' Doing this yourself is a quick way to get your account closed! 

However, streamers partnered with Chess.com have a special exception to this rule for entertainment purposes. The speedrun accounts are closely monitored by the Fair Play team, and all points lost to the accounts are returned to the opponents. 

The accounts are also clearly labeled for anyone playing against them to see, for example here is the profile of one of Hikaru Nakamura's speedrun accounts: 

 

Avatar of Ziryab
CooloutAC wrote:

  Because it literally sounds like you detest blitz in your title page.   "Fast chess rewards weakness. Playing for cheap traps and succeeding stifles progress

I mean wow.  Who's progress are you talking about?   Because I've done nothing but play blitz since i learned chess two months ago and I feel i've progressed a whole lot.      

 

If you read with comprehension, you would know that I am discussing my own progress, and also that the critical position I was drawing attention occurs in the Greco Attack.

White to move

According to my database, I've had this position 21 times.

In 19 games, I have played 10.Qb3, winning 18 games because I blundered two moves later in one game and had to play a long game, which I eventually lost. However, I won these games because none of my opponents played 10...d5, which equalizes. Rather, they always grab the rook.

The point of "Fast chess rewards weakness" is that I get away with a weak move--10.Qb3--because my opponents do not have time to think, and none of them are prepared.
10.Ba3 is a much stronger move. I've played it once.
10.Bxf7+ is weaker than 10.Qb3. I played it the first time I reached this position.

After 10.Qb3?, Black should play as this game.

 

My own progress requires that I unlearn bad habits that I have developed playing more than 150,000 blitz games.

It does appear that you have made progress since you began. If you are satisfied with how 5 0 games are creating that growth, don't let me deter you. You also mentioned in a thread that solving exercises and analyzing your own games are the way to improve. You are correct on those points, too.

One benefit of blitz is that you get a lot of games, which is a lot of experience. If you cultivate that experience well, blitz can help you develop. For me blitz has been double-edged, helping in some ways and hurting in others. Slow games have never hurt my growth.

 

Avatar of Ziryab

We actually do run blitz tourneys for the kids, but our all-day Saturday events draw more participants than the blitz events we have done.

Avatar of Ziryab
CooloutAC wrote:
 

 

1.  I've literally been conned with my subscription money. 

 

Then ask for a refund. That's not too difficult.

Avatar of iamchessitself
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:

That video is irrelevant.  And yes you've made it clear you don't care about speedrunners.  And I don't care about my rating either,  the rating is also irrelevant.  Its about the fact I'm subscribing with the promise of competitive matchups,  and the fact the site allows these people to undermine that to make money on twitch.  Its the fact as others have even provided examples of in this thread,  that encourages others to do the same unofficially.  Its the fact that the twitch community encourages people to use multiple accounts which is against TOS.   And imo,  thats why this site is infested with new accounts and the matchups are terrible at my level,  compared to a site with lichess.org which was a big revelation for me.   You see nothing wrong with that,  thats great.  You definitely have no sports sense and are not competitive. 

The promise of competitive chess? You have it. What do you think the statistical probability is that you play a random game, and it just happens to be a super GM smurf account? I have no idea but it's got to be well under 1%.

As for whether they're encouraging multiple accounts, I don't know that they're really having that effect. And if they are, how does that affect me? If a 1600 player has 5 accounts and I'm playing one of them, why should I care? It's against the rules, yes. But as a player, does it affect me in some way?

Take all games played last month and divide it by all speedruns by GMs ever played

Avatar of fluffytitbabbler
iamchessitself wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:

That video is irrelevant.  And yes you've made it clear you don't care about speedrunners.  And I don't care about my rating either,  the rating is also irrelevant.  Its about the fact I'm subscribing with the promise of competitive matchups,  and the fact the site allows these people to undermine that to make money on twitch.  Its the fact as others have even provided examples of in this thread,  that encourages others to do the same unofficially.  Its the fact that the twitch community encourages people to use multiple accounts which is against TOS.   And imo,  thats why this site is infested with new accounts and the matchups are terrible at my level,  compared to a site with lichess.org which was a big revelation for me.   You see nothing wrong with that,  thats great.  You definitely have no sports sense and are not competitive. 

The promise of competitive chess? You have it. What do you think the statistical probability is that you play a random game, and it just happens to be a super GM smurf account? I have no idea but it's got to be well under 1%.

As for whether they're encouraging multiple accounts, I don't know that they're really having that effect. And if they are, how does that affect me? If a 1600 player has 5 accounts and I'm playing one of them, why should I care? It's against the rules, yes. But as a player, does it affect me in some way?

Take all games played last month and divide it by all speedruns by GMs ever played

Come on everyone, you're just playing into guy's cards. His main claim is that most if not all chess.com's player base is brainwashed by the example of streamers, and they all cheat, sandbag, smurf and speedrun. And all honest and moral beginners play at lichess😂

Avatar of fluffytitbabbler
CooloutAC wrote:
iamchessitself wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:

That video is irrelevant.  And yes you've made it clear you don't care about speedrunners.  And I don't care about my rating either,  the rating is also irrelevant.  Its about the fact I'm subscribing with the promise of competitive matchups,  and the fact the site allows these people to undermine that to make money on twitch.  Its the fact as others have even provided examples of in this thread,  that encourages others to do the same unofficially.  Its the fact that the twitch community encourages people to use multiple accounts which is against TOS.   And imo,  thats why this site is infested with new accounts and the matchups are terrible at my level,  compared to a site with lichess.org which was a big revelation for me.   You see nothing wrong with that,  thats great.  You definitely have no sports sense and are not competitive. 

The promise of competitive chess? You have it. What do you think the statistical probability is that you play a random game, and it just happens to be a super GM smurf account? I have no idea but it's got to be well under 1%.

As for whether they're encouraging multiple accounts, I don't know that they're really having that effect. And if they are, how does that affect me? If a 1600 player has 5 accounts and I'm playing one of them, why should I care? It's against the rules, yes. But as a player, does it affect me in some way?

Take all games played last month and divide it by all speedruns by GMs ever played

And then add all the alt accounts inspired by them. 20,000 players and 9 titled players banned this month alone.  If speedrunning wasn't allowed I bet that number would be alot less.

And here goes yet another one of your bold and baseless predictions

Avatar of Rook_Handler

20,000 players and 9 titled players is probably a real statistic from Chess.com's monthly updates. How many of those 20,000 players were alt accounts and speedrunners is up for debate.

Avatar of fluffytitbabbler
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
iamchessitself wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:

That video is irrelevant.  And yes you've made it clear you don't care about speedrunners.  And I don't care about my rating either,  the rating is also irrelevant.  Its about the fact I'm subscribing with the promise of competitive matchups,  and the fact the site allows these people to undermine that to make money on twitch.  Its the fact as others have even provided examples of in this thread,  that encourages others to do the same unofficially.  Its the fact that the twitch community encourages people to use multiple accounts which is against TOS.   And imo,  thats why this site is infested with new accounts and the matchups are terrible at my level,  compared to a site with lichess.org which was a big revelation for me.   You see nothing wrong with that,  thats great.  You definitely have no sports sense and are not competitive. 

The promise of competitive chess? You have it. What do you think the statistical probability is that you play a random game, and it just happens to be a super GM smurf account? I have no idea but it's got to be well under 1%.

As for whether they're encouraging multiple accounts, I don't know that they're really having that effect. And if they are, how does that affect me? If a 1600 player has 5 accounts and I'm playing one of them, why should I care? It's against the rules, yes. But as a player, does it affect me in some way?

Take all games played last month and divide it by all speedruns by GMs ever played

And then add all the alt accounts inspired by them. 20,000 players and 9 titled players banned this month alone.  If speedrunning wasn't allowed I bet that number would be alot less.

And here goes yet another one of your bold and baseless predictions

 

The basis is literally human nature,  and how prevalent and acceptable alt accounts are in the community.  Especially in the twitch community where the streamers are speedrunning.   Which I've already proved to you when you asked by quickly linking a forum thread showing posters admitting as much that very same day.  

You proved nothing, but the fact that you think you did proves that you don't know what proof is.😂