Why are speedruns even allowed?

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Avatar of fluffytitbabbler
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
iamchessitself wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:

That video is irrelevant.  And yes you've made it clear you don't care about speedrunners.  And I don't care about my rating either,  the rating is also irrelevant.  Its about the fact I'm subscribing with the promise of competitive matchups,  and the fact the site allows these people to undermine that to make money on twitch.  Its the fact as others have even provided examples of in this thread,  that encourages others to do the same unofficially.  Its the fact that the twitch community encourages people to use multiple accounts which is against TOS.   And imo,  thats why this site is infested with new accounts and the matchups are terrible at my level,  compared to a site with lichess.org which was a big revelation for me.   You see nothing wrong with that,  thats great.  You definitely have no sports sense and are not competitive. 

The promise of competitive chess? You have it. What do you think the statistical probability is that you play a random game, and it just happens to be a super GM smurf account? I have no idea but it's got to be well under 1%.

As for whether they're encouraging multiple accounts, I don't know that they're really having that effect. And if they are, how does that affect me? If a 1600 player has 5 accounts and I'm playing one of them, why should I care? It's against the rules, yes. But as a player, does it affect me in some way?

Take all games played last month and divide it by all speedruns by GMs ever played

And then add all the alt accounts inspired by them. 20,000 players and 9 titled players banned this month alone.  If speedrunning wasn't allowed I bet that number would be alot less.

And here goes yet another one of your bold and baseless predictions

 

The basis is literally human nature,  and how prevalent and acceptable alt accounts are in the community.  Especially in the twitch community where the streamers are speedrunning.   Which I've already proved to you when you asked by quickly linking a forum thread showing posters admitting as much that very same day.  

You proved nothing, but the fact that you think you did proves that you don't know what proof is.😂

I accept your concession.  Learn to retort points or make some of yourself.  Go ahead.  attempt to prove me wrong.  Or simply stay conceded.

To know that you don't have proof, I don't need to prove you wrong. Just like I don't need to prove wrong any of the ridiculous, outrageous claims people have about anything and everything to know, that they don't have proof for those claims. But that's a level of thinking way above your grade. Facing that reality I really have no choice but to surrender😂 

Avatar of fluffytitbabbler
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
iamchessitself wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:

That video is irrelevant.  And yes you've made it clear you don't care about speedrunners.  And I don't care about my rating either,  the rating is also irrelevant.  Its about the fact I'm subscribing with the promise of competitive matchups,  and the fact the site allows these people to undermine that to make money on twitch.  Its the fact as others have even provided examples of in this thread,  that encourages others to do the same unofficially.  Its the fact that the twitch community encourages people to use multiple accounts which is against TOS.   And imo,  thats why this site is infested with new accounts and the matchups are terrible at my level,  compared to a site with lichess.org which was a big revelation for me.   You see nothing wrong with that,  thats great.  You definitely have no sports sense and are not competitive. 

The promise of competitive chess? You have it. What do you think the statistical probability is that you play a random game, and it just happens to be a super GM smurf account? I have no idea but it's got to be well under 1%.

As for whether they're encouraging multiple accounts, I don't know that they're really having that effect. And if they are, how does that affect me? If a 1600 player has 5 accounts and I'm playing one of them, why should I care? It's against the rules, yes. But as a player, does it affect me in some way?

Take all games played last month and divide it by all speedruns by GMs ever played

And then add all the alt accounts inspired by them. 20,000 players and 9 titled players banned this month alone.  If speedrunning wasn't allowed I bet that number would be alot less.

And here goes yet another one of your bold and baseless predictions

 

The basis is literally human nature,  and how prevalent and acceptable alt accounts are in the community.  Especially in the twitch community where the streamers are speedrunning.   Which I've already proved to you when you asked by quickly linking a forum thread showing posters admitting as much that very same day.  

You proved nothing, but the fact that you think you did proves that you don't know what proof is.😂

I accept your concession.  Learn to retort points or make some of yourself.  Go ahead.  attempt to prove me wrong.  Or simply stay conceded.

To know that you don't have proof, I don't need to prove you wrong. Just like I don't need to prove wrong any of the ridiculous, outrageous claims people have about anything and everything to know, that they don't have proof for those claims. But that's a level of thinking way above your grade. Facing that reality I really have no choice but to surrender😂 

haha.  You literally asked me to prove people openly talk about having alt accounts on the forums,  and within seconds I linked you a thread from that very same day with multiple people admitting it.  You are in denial and are embarrassing yourself now.

That's not what I asked you to do at all. In fact, I haven't asked you to prove anything. I simply stated that you can not prove the connection between streamers' speedrunning and the number of cheaters, which you have not because you can not. 

Avatar of fluffytitbabbler
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
iamchessitself wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:

That video is irrelevant.  And yes you've made it clear you don't care about speedrunners.  And I don't care about my rating either,  the rating is also irrelevant.  Its about the fact I'm subscribing with the promise of competitive matchups,  and the fact the site allows these people to undermine that to make money on twitch.  Its the fact as others have even provided examples of in this thread,  that encourages others to do the same unofficially.  Its the fact that the twitch community encourages people to use multiple accounts which is against TOS.   And imo,  thats why this site is infested with new accounts and the matchups are terrible at my level,  compared to a site with lichess.org which was a big revelation for me.   You see nothing wrong with that,  thats great.  You definitely have no sports sense and are not competitive. 

The promise of competitive chess? You have it. What do you think the statistical probability is that you play a random game, and it just happens to be a super GM smurf account? I have no idea but it's got to be well under 1%.

As for whether they're encouraging multiple accounts, I don't know that they're really having that effect. And if they are, how does that affect me? If a 1600 player has 5 accounts and I'm playing one of them, why should I care? It's against the rules, yes. But as a player, does it affect me in some way?

Take all games played last month and divide it by all speedruns by GMs ever played

And then add all the alt accounts inspired by them. 20,000 players and 9 titled players banned this month alone.  If speedrunning wasn't allowed I bet that number would be alot less.

And here goes yet another one of your bold and baseless predictions

 

The basis is literally human nature,  and how prevalent and acceptable alt accounts are in the community.  Especially in the twitch community where the streamers are speedrunning.   Which I've already proved to you when you asked by quickly linking a forum thread showing posters admitting as much that very same day.  

You proved nothing, but the fact that you think you did proves that you don't know what proof is.😂

I accept your concession.  Learn to retort points or make some of yourself.  Go ahead.  attempt to prove me wrong.  Or simply stay conceded.

To know that you don't have proof, I don't need to prove you wrong. Just like I don't need to prove wrong any of the ridiculous, outrageous claims people have about anything and everything to know, that they don't have proof for those claims. But that's a level of thinking way above your grade. Facing that reality I really have no choice but to surrender😂 

haha.  You literally asked me to prove people openly talk about having alt accounts on the forums,  and within seconds I linked you a thread from that very same day with multiple people admitting it.  You are in denial and are embarrassing yourself now.

That's not what I asked you to do at all. In fact, I haven't asked you to prove anything. I simply stated that you can not prove the connection between streamers' speedrunning and the number of cheaters, which you have not because you can not. 

you even used the word prove.    The connection is obvious.  Its common sense.  its human nature.  Its all over twitch and the forums.  You don't even believe its going on.  You're in denial.

Common sense is an assumption, not proof

Avatar of michael_clayton

Are normal people allowed to do speedruns, or only approved chess.com influencers?

Avatar of fluffytitbabbler
michael_clayton wrote:

Are normal people allowed to do speedruns, or only approved chess.com influencers?

https://support.chess.com/article/596-can-i-have-multiple-accounts

Avatar of michael_clayton
n0time4chess wrote:
michael_clayton wrote:

Are normal people allowed to do speedruns, or only approved chess.com influencers?

https://support.chess.com/article/596-can-i-have-multiple-accounts

LMAO so yes, only influencers are allowed to break the rules

Avatar of Ziryab
n0time4chess wrote:
 

Common sense is an assumption, not proof

 

It is also not very common. In the case asserted here, it is a speculative assumption that relies on several far-fetched operations of cause and effect, each extremely unlikely.

A similar chain of loose associations mistaken for cause and effect was the subject of Congressional hearings in the 1990s. Frank Zappa was brilliant in his refutation.

https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/frankzapparockmusiclyrics.htm

 

Avatar of Rook_Handler

Coolout, they are not defending the practices of speedrunning and alt-accounting. They agree with you that such things are bad. They disagree with you over how common and dangerous such speedrunning is. The more you insult them, the more angry you will get with them and the more angry they will get with you (although Ziryab is doing a remarkable job staying calm).

Avatar of Ziryab
Rook_Handler wrote:

Coolout, they are not defending the practices of speedrunning and alt-accounting. They agree with you that such things are bad. They disagree with you over how common and dangerous such speedrunning is. The more you insult them, the more angry you will get with them and the more angry they will get with you (although Ziryab is doing a remarkable job staying calm).

 

It's hard to get angry about someone with zero credibility trying to tell me I shouldn't be doing something. My response is to laugh. It's like an episode of America's Funniest Home Videos. Fools showing they are fools.

Avatar of Ziryab

It is not a debate when only one side deploys reason and evidence.

Avatar of Rook_Handler
CooloutAC wrote:
Rook_Handler wrote:

Coolout, they are not defending the practices of speedrunning and alt-accounting. They agree with you that such things are bad. They disagree with you over how common and dangerous such speedrunning is. The more you insult them, the more angry you will get with them and the more angry they will get with you (although Ziryab is doing a remarkable job staying calm).

That makes no sense.  Why even post such statements.   They think speedrunning is bad.  But yet feel the need to debate me on just how bad it is?   Sounds fake buddy.  Sounds like they are trolling me all over the forum in thread after thread because I advocate for treating chess as a sport and more blitz tournaments.  period.   To try and say speedruns are not as detrimental to the community as I think they are,  is in defense of them and condoning them.   Its either bad,  or its not bad.  To argue anything else to shine them in a better more accepting light,  and thats shameful.    do they not realize people around the world is reading this?  

I mean its to the point that even Fide was questioning players at the Grand Riga if they should have more blitz tournaments to attract fans   Thats killing these two old guys.  they see me as threat,  why else would they even be posting if thats the case?  Why would you even defend such behavior?

Why does it not make sense and why does it sound fake to you? You made those two statements without supporting evidence. 

You are also saying that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is shameful and wrong. You then simplify the argument from a debate on the range and damage that speedrunning causes (of which there are many positions) into a simple "speedrunning is super bad and evil, or it is right" which is the either-or fallacy. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

Avatar of athlblue
CooloutAC wrote:
kracker12345 wrote:

You're assuming people don't get their rating points back. They do. And you don't have proof because speedrunners aren't going to lose so many games just to go down to 400. 

What does that have to do with  "allowing people to undermine the competitive matches most of us are here and subscribed for"    Thats absolutely irrelevant.  The fact you focus on that though is what these speedrunners have taught you.  You are exposing and confirming the fact,  rating manipulation is what its  really teaching.

I don't watch any chess streamers or youtubers. It has to do with the evidence that you're not supplying.

Avatar of fluffytitbabbler
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
iamchessitself wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:

That video is irrelevant.  And yes you've made it clear you don't care about speedrunners.  And I don't care about my rating either,  the rating is also irrelevant.  Its about the fact I'm subscribing with the promise of competitive matchups,  and the fact the site allows these people to undermine that to make money on twitch.  Its the fact as others have even provided examples of in this thread,  that encourages others to do the same unofficially.  Its the fact that the twitch community encourages people to use multiple accounts which is against TOS.   And imo,  thats why this site is infested with new accounts and the matchups are terrible at my level,  compared to a site with lichess.org which was a big revelation for me.   You see nothing wrong with that,  thats great.  You definitely have no sports sense and are not competitive. 

The promise of competitive chess? You have it. What do you think the statistical probability is that you play a random game, and it just happens to be a super GM smurf account? I have no idea but it's got to be well under 1%.

As for whether they're encouraging multiple accounts, I don't know that they're really having that effect. And if they are, how does that affect me? If a 1600 player has 5 accounts and I'm playing one of them, why should I care? It's against the rules, yes. But as a player, does it affect me in some way?

Take all games played last month and divide it by all speedruns by GMs ever played

And then add all the alt accounts inspired by them. 20,000 players and 9 titled players banned this month alone.  If speedrunning wasn't allowed I bet that number would be alot less.

And here goes yet another one of your bold and baseless predictions

 

The basis is literally human nature,  and how prevalent and acceptable alt accounts are in the community.  Especially in the twitch community where the streamers are speedrunning.   Which I've already proved to you when you asked by quickly linking a forum thread showing posters admitting as much that very same day.  

You proved nothing, but the fact that you think you did proves that you don't know what proof is.😂

I accept your concession.  Learn to retort points or make some of yourself.  Go ahead.  attempt to prove me wrong.  Or simply stay conceded.

To know that you don't have proof, I don't need to prove you wrong. Just like I don't need to prove wrong any of the ridiculous, outrageous claims people have about anything and everything to know, that they don't have proof for those claims. But that's a level of thinking way above your grade. Facing that reality I really have no choice but to surrender😂 

haha.  You literally asked me to prove people openly talk about having alt accounts on the forums,  and within seconds I linked you a thread from that very same day with multiple people admitting it.  You are in denial and are embarrassing yourself now.

That's not what I asked you to do at all. In fact, I haven't asked you to prove anything. I simply stated that you can not prove the connection between streamers' speedrunning and the number of cheaters, which you have not because you can not. 

you even used the word prove.    The connection is obvious.  Its common sense.  its human nature.  Its all over twitch and the forums.  You don't even believe its going on.  You're in denial.

Common sense is an assumption, not proof

Again,  you asked me to prove that people talk openly about it on the forums.  And I instantly did.  You're in denial.

Again, you're a muppet and a liar. I never asked you to do any such thing.

Avatar of fluffytitbabbler

I never asked you to prove that people talk openly about anything in the forums. Either you're lying on purpose in order to deflect or you can't keep track of what's being discussed here. 

 

 

Avatar of Ziryab
CooloutAC wrote:
  I've shown how prevalent alt accounts are in the community regardless,  

 

The complete absence of evidence for your suppositions is the distinguishing feature of your posts. You have made this assertion 67 times. You have provided zero evidence.

Avatar of Ziryab
CooloutAC wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
  I've shown how prevalent alt accounts are in the community regardless,  

 

The complete absence of evidence for your suppositions is the distinguishing feature of your posts. You have made this assertion 67 times. You have provided zero evidence.

When he asked I instantly linked a thread form the same day showing people openly talking about being alts. 

 

Give me the post number. I’lI take a look. I missed it.

What I have seen repeatedly is you making claims, others telling you that you don’t have evidence, and you resorting to insulting language and faux moralizing. The present post is smack dead center in this pattern.

I did watch one of the videos that you shared a link to. Alt accounts were not discussed, although it was obvious that Hikaru Nakamura was using one. It turned out that several of us watched the video to the end, but you have not.

Avatar of Ziryab
CooloutAC wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

I did watch one of the videos that you shared a link to. Alt accounts were not discussed, although it was obvious that Hikaru Nakamura was using one. It turned out that several of us watched the video to the end, but you have not.



I never shared a video discussing alt accounts,  I don't even know what you are talking about.   

 

 

Correct. I told you this. You did share a video where Hikaru Nakamura was using an alt account, but admitted you had not watched it.

CooloutAC wrote:
n0time4chess wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
krazeechess wrote:

ok so after all that speedrun debating what is the final stance

 

Chess streamers should be required to submit to a human subjects review board before they do a speedrun.


BTW,  here is the answer to your question if  I really believe Super GM's play rated 400 players.  Beating a 400 Player: Step by Step - YouTube

Hikaru has been trolling this thread for over a week now.  So has Daniel Narditzky,  releasing speedrun video after speedrun video to spite it imo. Daniel even said he would no longer do speedruns and focus on his OTB tourney prep,  but has since abandoned that now.   And Hikaru has been making especially clickbaity and toxic titles like "ripping the rating away from the 1200s" for example.    Absolute sociopathic behavior.  Hikaru is without a doubt , just by the way he talks about and interacts with his stepfather and brother as if they are complete strangers to him. a sociopath.  And this is what they are teaching kids to be like.

I'll be getting muted for this but it must be said.   He is literally encouraging rating manipulation just with his youtube titles alone. Regardless if the points in his matches are returned he undermined the competitive matches of his opponents and breeded people who are doing it unofficially.    And he knows it and is doing it spitefully because of this thread now.   I mean you can read one past thread on here where a kid posts "i want to speedrun just like HIkaru"  and many posters replying to him telling him to do it  saying its fun.    I've seen chats on many twitch streams talking about having multiple accounts even one for each variant, and streamers literally encouraging it.  I find this unacceptable and why I feel Lichess is way more mature and honest and the matchups bear that out.

This is why I can come to no other conclusion as to why the ratings, especially at the beginner levels on this site, feel so lopsided and why there is so many new accounts compared to lichess who is known to ban even super gms.    These streamers are encouraging the use of multiple accounts.

You didn't watch the video, did you? At the end, Hikaru talked to the guy and praised him for well played game. He was in the stream chat and so presumably knew who he played,  and the game itself was quite instructive. Not the best example you picked here 😂  

No,  I assumed he was speedrunning like he does normally.

 

Avatar of Ziryab

Okay. I found the thread where one player claimed multiple accounts.

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/studying-more-but-losing-more

It is not the evidence you claim it is.

It offers zero connection to speedruns. It offers zero evidence that GMs using alt accounts to do speedruns have influenced the user to violate the terms of service. It offers no compelling evidence that multiple accounts are common.

As every long-time user of this site knows, because it has been discussed often, chess.com monitors IP addresses. When nefarious activity is associated with multiple accounts that share IP addresses, action is swift.

If you have multiple accounts, you need to be pretty clean.

Avatar of Ziryab
CooloutAC wrote:


   But apparently it was not one of his speedrunning videos,  so its irrelevant to the topic.  Which you successfully derailed by questioning me over the fact thes GM's do and have speedrunned in the 400 rating pool.   Are you claiming he doesn't speedrun now? Is this another failed attempt to say speedrunning is not bad by using a video where its not even being done?  


I have never defended speedruns. I agree they are ethically suspect. In fact, in this thread, my suggestion for addressing them is the strongest and most robust. I don't think you even read it.

My contention is that you have your panties in a twist over something that is relatively insignificant in its impact on the general playing pool. The odds of being the subject in a speed run even once in one thousand games are pretty slim.

Speedruns have not impacted your ability to get a competitive game. Not in the slightest. That is my contention. 

My evidence: I've looked at your games on two sites. The strongest player you have faced is pretty weak. Maybe 1200ish OTB (~1800 on Lichess).

Avatar of Ziryab

One thread with eight posts does not equal "so openly talked about". There is no proof that it is prevalent. It is not a serious problem. There are isolated instances of multiple accounts. There are a handful of master-level streamers who speedrun.

Stop the personal attacks. They violate the site's policies.

Read what I wrote. Stop distorting it.

I have not defended speedrunning. Quite the contrary. Like the alleged voter fraud some politicians use to delude the ignorant, you have invented a problem for which there are a small number of cases, but as a widespread problem simply does not exist. Its impact on you is nil.

I am beginning to think that you never finished elementary school because your reading skills are so low and your reasoning skills are so weak. You are still welcome here. Play chess. Have fun. Get better.

If you could simply focus on your chess and how to improve it, you would enjoy this site more. Instead you come to these forums, spew crazy allegations, and try to pick fights with your superiors.

BTW all of my coaching has been in the twenty-first century. Check your arithmetic. 

 

I can show you other problems on this site that I think are insignificant because they are not common. For instance, I was looking at the games of a chess coach. The coach is a master who plays daily games with weak players and intentionally blunders in every game. This could be seen as sandbagging, rating manipulation, and losing on purpose. But, the coach is not playing anyone who is not one of his students, as far as I can see. It would be better if these games were unrated, but the practice has minimal impact on the overall site.

I suspect this practice is vastly more common than speedrunning. Still not a widespread problem.