Why only 3 black grandmasters, none of which are American?

Sort:
Monie49

This has turned political and should be blocked.

If you want to talk politics, this is not the proper forum.

LosingAndLearning81

It's not political. People on both the right and left are pissed off at Trump. If anything, it should be something that unites us all. grin.png

rmanthony

What does OP mean?

LosingAndLearning81
cottonsock wrote:
I agree with you wholeheartedly, and it’s a shame that America has such a President. America has had truly great
Presidents in the past , but the one you have now , will never match their greatness.

I think the last great president we had was JFK. LBJ was a disaster in every way conceivable. It's gotten progressively worse since. Obama was a break from the bad but was still a whole lot of nothing, truth be told - and oh boy did he love war. Virtually all American citizens hate war - we all want to bring our boys home and cut military spending and do away with the imperialist machine, but so far it's been very challenging finding politicians who agree with the masses.

CrystalMoon

Politics are off-limits in the forums,  Please abide by the posting guidelines.

LosingAndLearning81
CrystalMoon wrote:

Politics are off-limits in the forums,  Please abide by the posting guidelines.

I'm sorry. I won't do it again.

movethempawns

As the internet continues to expand I am sure we will start seeing a lot more black GM's 

BradleyFarms
Argh, it means something how? Why do people bother them selves with such questions?
bartnic1

There's also the fact that the average IQ of black people on average is 80 or so. You can look this up on Wikipedia. Just to be clear, its not saying that its genetic in origin (in fact the idea that race even has a genetic component is considered false by many biological anthropologists). A lot of psychometricians believe it can be explained entirely due to environmental origins, such as the generational effects of slavery, pro-gang black culture (i.e. rappers who often include anti-police lyrics), or the abnormally high rate of single-parent households, specifically single mothers, in black society. So basically, due to poor education and negative cultural and family influences, they will tend to have fewer opportunities, as well as in general a lower than average intelligence quotient as measured on standardized tests, leading to a reduced interest in chess and other intellectual pursuits.


Also to Mark the Destroyer and his supporters, the suggestion that asking this question is racist is completely absurd and actively harmful to the black community. Students who are PhD candidates in political or social science study these issues all the time in different contexts. For example, different races experience markedly different living conditions in the USA, and have different criminal conviction rates, and its important to understand why these things are true so that the government can implement policies aimed at fixing the problem and making things better. Believe it or not, there are other reasons (if you spend 5 seconds thinking about it) besides RACISM!!!1111 for asking these questions.

If you suppress all conversation and call everyone inquiring into these problems as racist, then those problems will never be solved, and institutional issues will never come to light (if they do indeed exist). Part of what the OP is doing is raising awareness on this issue so that it may be solved. Its attitudes like yours that only make things more problematic.

TuckerTommy
Standing ovation for bartnic1. Thanks bartnic1. You have really emphasized the objective for the post. I tend to think a major portion of the problem is cultural. African Americans are into basketball and football. When I was in high school, I saw students playing chess and thought to myself, that that seemed geekish! Except now, I wished I’d learned it then. That being said, many black men are in jail where they play lots of chess—not sure if this says anything—observation. Speaking of single moms prevalence among blacks....wasn’t Bobby Fischer from a single parent home? Now the question is black women do not play in the NFL or NBA! How about getting them on board. Anyone know if there are many black American FM, NM, or IM chess guys. I think someone mentioned there are quite a few masters. I’ll google! I also thought that since the opportunities for blacks to excel are so prevalent these days that slavery wouldn’t have such a dire effect in this day and time on IQ or chess excellence.
ponz111
TuckerTommy wrote:
Standing ovation for bartnic1. Thanks bartnic1. You have really emphasized the objective for the post. I tend to think a major portion of the problem is cultural. African Americans are into basketball and football. When I was in high school, I saw students playing chess and thought to myself, that that seemed geekish! Except now, I wished I’d learned it then. That being said, many black men are in jail where they play lots of chess—not sure if this says anything—observation. Speaking of single moms prevalence among blacks....wasn’t Bobby Fischer from a single parent home? Now the question is black women do not play in the NFL or NBA! How about getting them on board. Anyone know if there are many black American FM, NM, or IM chess guys. I think someone mentioned there are quite a few masters. I’ll google! I also thought that since the opportunities for blacks to excel are so prevalent these days that slavery wouldn’t have such a dire effect in this day and time on IQ or chess excellence.

I played a black FM from Chicago in the Finals of the 7th USA Correspondence Chess Championship. Correspondence chess was not his thing and he came in about last in the Championship Finals. 

BradleyFarms
[COMMENT DELETED]
LosingAndLearning81
bartnic1 wrote:

There's also the fact that the average IQ of black people on average is 80 or so. You can look this up on Wikipedia. Just to be clear, its not saying that its genetic in origin (in fact the idea that race even has a genetic component is considered false by many biological anthropologists). A lot of psychometricians believe it can be explained entirely due to environmental origins, such as the generational effects of slavery, pro-gang black culture (i.e. rappers who often include anti-police lyrics), or the abnormally high rate of single-parent households, specifically single mothers, in black society. So basically, due to poor education and negative cultural and family influences, they will tend to have fewer opportunities, as well as in general a lower than average intelligence quotient as measured on standardized tests, leading to a reduced interest in chess and other intellectual pursuits.


Also to Mark the Destroyer and his supporters, the suggestion that asking this question is racist is completely absurd and actively harmful to the black community. Students who are PhD candidates in political or social science study these issues all the time in different contexts. For example, different races experience markedly different living conditions in the USA, and have different criminal conviction rates, and its important to understand why these things are true so that the government can implement policies aimed at fixing the problem and making things better. Believe it or not, there are other reasons (if you spend 5 seconds thinking about it) besides RACISM!!!1111 for asking these questions.

If you suppress all conversation and call everyone inquiring into these problems as racist, then those problems will never be solved, and institutional issues will never come to light (if they do indeed exist). Part of what the OP is doing is raising awareness on this issue so that it may be solved. Its attitudes like yours that only make things more problematic.

 

Okay, first of all, race has a genetic component and virtually all modern biologists now see this as no longer debatable. Now that the human genome is mapped, it's too obvious that certain traits really do occur with far greater consistency in some population groups relative to others. Now whether or not this genetic component is enough to constitute separate races is debatable. Most biologists say no, and I agree with their assessment. But that there exists at least some biological components to the social classification of race is no longer disputed among the scientific community.

Additionally, while it's true that certain demographics perform better on IQ tests, it's not at all agreed upon whether or not performing well on an IQ test is related to actual, real world intelligence. If nothing else, in the case of race and IQ, it simply proves that traits conducive to doing well on tests occur with more regularity within certain populations.

Lastly, data used to indicate a correlation between IQ and chess performance is sketchy at best. While some tests do demonstrate that IQ is useful in chess, there have actually been tests that demonstrate a negative correlation. And then there are your savants who do very poorly on IQ tests but are absolute geniuses at math and memory. And there are a lot of people with extremely high IQs who will admit to being absolutely hopeless at chess. Personally, I believe that spatial intelligence and memory are useful when it comes to competing at the highest level - but by no means are these traits a guarantor of being able to perform well on an IQ test, nor that they are particularly associated more so with any one race.

fewlio

actually this apportionment of black GMs is appropriate, as most people referred to as black in America are actually of mixed race.  If you compare them to immigrants fresh from Africa or people in Africa, you will see that this is the case.

TuckerTommy
There is an African American guy named Dereque Kelley on youtube whose videos I use to watch a lot when I studied openings. He’s an FM...and I’d imagine there many like him who are not in the public eye. That nullifies someone’s statement, that blacks have no interest in the sport of chess! He also has a site chessopenings.com.
TuckerTommy
My apologies....Dereque Kelley is an IM....one level away from GM...even more impressive!!
president_max

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2038439

i believe Dereque is a USCF NM.  He could have applied for an FIDE CM title if he wanted to but holds no FIDE titles currently.

TuckerTommy
This article says it all....now I understand why....it only makes sense...a number of very practical reasons are given for the disparity.... http://www.thechessdrum.net/blog/2010/08/19/the-challenges-of-black-chess-masters/
BradleyFarms

Ah well, there are some, however a way to rephrase that sate meant to "Not much interest into excelling in the chess world."

president_max

This forum topic has been locked