Why the separation between men and women?

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LunaMoonstar5

This kind of discrimination enrages me. We used to have chess tournaments at school when I was young. The boys were seated on chairs with the board on the table in front of them, and the girls were made to sit on the floor. Such kind of things, along with thinking that women are not that good at chess, are seriously ridiculous.

Sea_TurtIe

men are smarter

mpaetz
Deepcombinations91 wrote:

No they definitely should. My point was that in those countries women are treated like second class citizens. It's almost not worth mentioning they can't play chess with the men as it's so obvious

Yes, but it is one reason FIDE can't just pretend everything is equal everywhere. That's the reason separate titles were originally created, and why they are not being phased out now.

LunaMoonstar5

Yes Sea_Turtle. Smart in putting women down :peaceful

ice_cream_cake

I've seen this kind of question multiple times -- not just in chess. In high school I remember seeing it asked on the Art of Problem Solving forums (geared towards mathy students) something like, how is it fair the Math Prize for Girls (a competition) is a thing? What if there was Math Prize for Boys?
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I think many people, especially those who have limited related experiences, underestimate the degree to which the kind of social environment you have access to is part of your success. To me, women's tournaments are a very logical and reasonable measure to encourage female participation.

ThrillerFan
FlamingKatana wrote:

Bro there is an entire woman history month, but there is only one day dedicated to men, and that is on november 19. What happened to equality?!

Women and people of color are discriminated against way too much still!

And yet, Black History MONTH is February while Women's History MONTH is March?

Women and people of color deserve more all 12 months, and yet, you whine about what men get when in reality, the other 10 months still unfairly favor them!

ice_cream_cake
8thMarch2023 wrote:
Kochizy wrote:

Chess is tactical , intellectual and strategic games. Don't you think we should stop separating the league between men and women? So everybody is ranked in the same category : chess. We don't have this in the field of medicine. Men and Women grandmaster should play agains each other in international competition

There are more differences between the minds and personalities of adult men and women than there are differences in their physical characteristics.

Unlike healthcare, chess is a competition.

Bold claim, given that there are stark differences in the physical characteristics of men and women. I doubt you have a valid source.
This topic has been beaten to death many times, but let me just say anyway: I won't deny that there may be differences (overall) in the minds/personalities of men and women, but it's so common to overlook the effects of the social environment (no matter how many times this is reiterated, it seems). The existence of women's competitions does not have to do with women's minds being "different". It has to do with the underrepresentation of women in chess.

ice_cream_cake
8thMarch2023 wrote:

It's not a bold claim, Men and women have even starker differences in their minds, gender roles, socialization and emotional needs than they have physical differences and have for thousands of years.

You'd be hard pressed to find a healthy and reasonable adult, that goes outside and has any interactions with the opposite sex who would tell you otherwise.

Even funnier that the OP talked about health care, women and men are very different in the workspace and in the care they give / the role they have.

Even if true, bringing this up in this context is misleading and unhelpful, because like I said, the reason for women's tournaments does not have to do with "differences" between men and women.
"You'd be hard pressed to find a healthy and reasonable adult, that goes outside and has any interactions with the opposite sex who would tell you otherwise."
Okay, so, I'm over 18, and I have interactions with men, and no....I'm not at all buying the idea that they differ from me more in terms of their "minds/personalities" than their physical appearances.
Obviously, not too many men are shorter than me, their facial structures and figures are different, they grow facial hair where I don't, etc. However, I don't think that I feel much difference in genders when interacting with my male friends (edited to be more concise, haha). Idk, yes I believe there are differences (otherwise I might befriend more guys), but I don't believe they are as drastic as you claim.

ice_cream_cake
8thMarch2023 wrote:

"even if true" is pretty telling.

You don't have to like it, but don't pretend you're interested in facts or perspective. People can find a way to take offense to anything even if it doesn't have any bearing on themselves.

Women are free to compete in open tournaments, and there are women who compete in women's events, some of which obviously appreciate the more humble and approachable competition. It's a bit insensitive if you hope to ruin what is, for them and their taste, a good thing.

What's telling about "even if true"? I'm pointing out that your argument is not even relevant to the original question, and you have (very logically) completely ignored that point.
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Feel free to accuse me of not caring about facts or perspectives while you make vague claims without citations or substantiation....ok. "People can find a way to take offense to anything even if it doesn't have any bearing on themselves." Why do you think it has no bearing on me? If it's because you think I won't ever be titled, well, probably that's true, but I care about female representation in chess and it does affect me.
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"It's a bit insensitive if you hope to ruin what is, for them and their taste, a good thing."
What am I ruining, exactly? I'm for these competitions, and as I said earlier, I think there are good and valid reasons for them. I just said they have to do with the social environment rather than mental "differences". I'm a veteran of female competitions myself (3x Honorable mention + gold, silver, and bronze medals in Math Prize for Girls.)

654Psyfox

3 layers deep...

ice_cream_cake

8th of March
This will be my last response to you. I feel that you are trying to provoke me with exaggerated comments, so clearly there is no use in trying to apply reason in talking to you.
I need to point out how strongly I believe you are not a woman based on the fact that you have as your pfp a picture of a girl in swimwear on the beach. Hardly any sane female player will do that on chess.com. I hope I do not need to explain why. And I find it despicable behavior for men to put a misleading female pfp.
So, when I see a picture like that, well, I definitely do not want to listen to or pay attention to his thoughts about genders.
That's it. I'm out of here. I don't like arguing here, anyway.

mpaetz
8thMarch2023 wrote:

You don't have to like it, but don't pretend you're interested in facts or perspective. People can find a way to take offense to anything even if it doesn't have any bearing on themselves.

Women are free to compete in open tournaments, and there are women who compete in women's events, some of which obviously appreciate the more humble and approachable competition. It's a bit insensitive if you hope to ruin what is, for them and their taste, a good thing.

I'd be interested in actual facts; scientific studies you might cite that prove that the genders "have starker differences in their minds" than in their bodies.

Also, women can only play in open tournaments where such tournaments actually exist; there are hundreds of millions of women that live in places where such events are strictly illegal.

ice_cream_cake
8thMarch2023 wrote:

That said, it's also why I, and a few other members of this thread didn't try to argue or seriously discuss this with you. You clearly made up your mind and have some very strong feelings on the subject and that's fine. You'll get over it.

Okay. Fine. No need to respond to your ad hominem attack. But I will make one last comment.....you're very skilled at the manipulative technique of painting someone as too emotional, and thus distracting from their arguments and discrediting them. Especially if the other person is, unlike you, female -- thus making it easier to discredit them.
Great job at showcasing how logical you are. happy.png

mpaetz
8thMarch2023 wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
8thMarch2023 wrote:

You don't have to like it, but don't pretend you're interested in facts or perspective. People can find a way to take offense to anything even if it doesn't have any bearing on themselves.

Women are free to compete in open tournaments, and there are women who compete in women's events, some of which obviously appreciate the more humble and approachable competition. It's a bit insensitive if you hope to ruin what is, for them and their taste, a good thing.

I'd be interested in actual facts; scientific studies you might cite that prove that the genders "have starker differences in their minds" than in their bodies.

Also, women can only play in open tournaments where such tournaments actually exist; there are hundreds of millions of women that live in places where such events are strictly illegal.

In those circumstances, it's typically for religious reasons. That's a whole other can of worms.

What, no real facts to back up your prejudices? And regardless of the reason for such intra-gender competition, such conditions do exist and FIDE does have to operate throughout the entire real world.

CheerUpChess-Youtube

Personally I think it's not that women can't play against men, but that they simply don't want to.

mpaetz
8thMarch2023 wrote:

You're welcome to deny anything I said in this thread but good luck convincing the world, or the chess world for that matter, that anything I mentioned is wrong.

You are the one making claims about the nature and extent of gender differences. It is incumbent on the claimant to provide substantiation of their opinion. And you need only examine this and other similar forums to see that there are great numbers among the "chess world" that do not subscribe to your opinions.

mpaetz
8thMarch2023 wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
8thMarch2023 wrote:

You're welcome to deny anything I said in this thread but good luck convincing the world, or the chess world for that matter, that anything I mentioned is wrong.

You are the one making claims about the nature and extent of gender differences. It is incumbent on the claimant to provide substantiation of their opinion. And you need only examine this and other similar forums to see that there are great numbers among the "chess world" that do not subscribe to your opinions.

It would be incumbent if it wasn't already established.

I'm not making a new claim, nor am I going to waste my breath.

It's like going to a LGBTQXYZ+ rally and trying to say there are two genders.

But I say it has NOT been established. It's simply your personal prejudice. Your postulate is unsubstantiated and incorrect. Thank-you for your promise to refrain from further iteration of this ridiculous point.

mpaetz
8thMarch2023 wrote:

You're welcome to make such a claim, but calling something idle and personal prejudice whenever you don't like facts doesn't do all that much to change them.

As I said, I am interested in seeing any actual facts you have. So far you have provided none. This is the usual recourse of someone whose beliefs are baseless opinions.

paper_llama
8thMarch2023 wrote:

Men and women have even starker differences in their minds, gender roles, socialization and emotional needs than they have physical differences

Eh... that's a pretty low bar. The physical differences are so small it's easy to imagine an alien race not being able to tell us apart male vs female. At least those certain kinds of fish and birds have crazy stuff like the female being 100x larger or the male having colorful feathers.

Anyway, on top of "even larger mental differences" not saying much, people don't play chess with "emotional needs" (whatever that means specifically).

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In my experience females and males play chess the same way and with equal success. The graphs of the ratings of middle aged male and female FIDE players almost completely overlap. The difference is only the extreme outliers (2700 club) that can easily be explained by "you need a large base population before seeing very rare individuals."

But anyway, you don't deserve a serious response since it seems you're trolling... just adding my voice to a few who've disagreed.

mpaetz
8thMarch2023 wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
8thMarch2023 wrote:

You're welcome to make such a claim, but calling something idle and personal prejudice whenever you don't like facts doesn't do all that much to change them.

As I said, I am interested in seeing any actual facts you have. So far you have provided none. This is the usual recourse of someone whose beliefs are baseless opinions.

And?

There are many women who enjoy having mountains they might actually climb. Nothing wrong with a girl's club.

And it's only less prestigious when you start comparing it to other events on other, more inclusive scales.

Instead of protesting, you should make a bubble. That's what they did, or rather what was done for them.

I see you can't live up to your promise to stop wasting your breath here. Still no real facts to back up your wild claims.