Will chess.com ever fix brilliant moves?

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Avatar of heedblank

I love the concept but most of the times the moves just don't make any sense as to why they are brilliancies and sometimes when you think you found a hard move it turns out it was just a best move 

would it really be that hard to fix the brilliant moves or is it more about chess.com's willingness for it 

Avatar of MorningGlory84

There's probably nothing to fix, it's just the algorithm will occasionally assess randomly made moves as brilliant due to the outcome.

Avatar of Knights_of_Doom

As a computer science professor with a fair amount of experience in chess programming, I can state pretty confidently that coming up with an algorithm for identifying moves that humans would consider "brilliant", is a VERY hard problem.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl
heedblank wrote:

I love the concept but most of the times the moves just don't make any sense as to why they are brilliancies and sometimes when you think you found a hard move it turns out it was just a best move 

would it really be that hard to fix the brilliant moves or is it more about chess.com's willingness for it 

 

Brilliant moves have a pretty simple definition in regards to the review product. They are sacrifices that are good or best and can be influenced by rating.

Avatar of Chesserroo2

The computer currently calls queen trades brilliant if you are the one recapturing. This is because any other move is 9 points worse. That is a bad definition.

 

To me, a brilliant move is a sound sacrifice that does not win back material or reach mate for a long time to come. It shows we saw far ahead even considering moves that seem counterintuitive in the short run. There are quiet brilliant moves, but changing the algorithm to that definition would be a good start.

Avatar of Jimemy

You have to be able to program it. Now its like ”ohh I left a piece hanging but if my opponent takes it I win”. But how would you program a real brilliant move that people think is brilliant and hard to spot, that is kinda vague to make a code of.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl
Chesserroo2 wrote:

The computer currently calls queen trades brilliant if you are the one recapturing. This is because any other move is 9 points worse. That is a bad definition.

 

To me, a brilliant move is a sound sacrifice that does not win back material or reach mate for a long time to come. It shows we saw far ahead even considering moves that seem counterintuitive in the short run. There are quiet brilliant moves, but changing the algorithm to that definition would be a good start.

 

Do you have an example game showing that? Because a brilliant has to be a sacrifice of material.

Avatar of Chesserroo2
Martin_Stahl wrote:
Chesserroo2 wrote:

The computer currently calls queen trades brilliant if you are the one recapturing. This is because any other move is 9 points worse. That is a bad definition.

 

To me, a brilliant move is a sound sacrifice that does not win back material or reach mate for a long time to come. It shows we saw far ahead even considering moves that seem counterintuitive in the short run. There are quiet brilliant moves, but changing the algorithm to that definition would be a good start.

 

Do you have an example Gane showing that? Because a brilliant has to be a sacrifice of material.

It was a while ago. I don't feel like digging it up.

 

In response to the other poster, what can make it more brilliant is how many moves transpire from the sacrifice to the mate or regain of material.

Avatar of 1g1yy

I can't make heads nor tails of how it classifies moves.  I played a daily game recently where an opponent made what game-review called a "Mistake".  This move dropped a knight with check, and on the next move dropped a rook, for no compensation whatsoever, and no exchange of pieces.  Now, if 8 points of material for free with a king out in the weather and my queen / knight all over it and no defenders nearby, doesn't qualify as a blunder, what does?  

PS. I've never had a move labeled brilliant that I can recall.  But something tells me I vaguely recall one where it was an only move, but I would have no idea how to find a game with one if I did have.    

Avatar of Martin_Stahl

The initial implementation of brilliant used to work differently but it was decided it didn't really work very well, so the sacrifice definition was created instead.

Avatar of heedblank
MorningGlory84 wrote:

There's probably nothing to fix, it's just the algorithm will occasionally assess randomly made moves as brilliant due to the outcome.

well clearly the current algorithm isn't working and needs to be improved even if it isn't a clear "fix"

Avatar of idilis
Knights_of_Doom wrote:

As a computer science professor with a fair amount of experience in chess programming, I can state pretty confidently that coming up with an algorithm for identifying moves that humans would consider "brilliant", is a VERY hard problem.

As the local uneducated village idiot, I fully agree with you.

Avatar of idilis
Martin_Stahl wrote:

The initial implementation of brilliant used to work differently but it was decided it didn't really work very well, so the sacrifice definition was created instead.

At some point, sacrificing the whole brilliant move classification altogether may make more sense.  Of course the community will not be able to gloat anymore.

Avatar of MorningGlory84

I think 18. Nc6... was a genuinely brilliant move, forking four pieces whilst threatening checkmate.

Avatar of tygxc

@3
"identifying moves that humans would consider "brilliant", is a VERY hard problem."
++ A true brilliant move satisfies 4 criteria:

  1. It is winning. Losing or drawing moves are not brilliant.
  2. It is unique. When 2 moves win then none is brilliant.
  3. It involves a sacrifice of material. That is aesthetically pleasing.
  4. It is a quiet move: neither check (+), nor capture (x). Those are too obvious.

It should be easy to program that.

Here is an example of a true brilliant move
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1031957 

Avatar of Martin_Stahl
TheCheesePhoenix wrote:

1. I think in losing positions finding the only move that draws (not obvious) should be brilliant.
...

 

How do you programatically determine non-obviousness? Engines don't think like humans and what's obvious for one person may not be for another.

 

In regards to the overall topic, people have differences in opinion on what brilliant should mean, and there will never be 100% consensus. 

 

If the site wants to categorize a move as brilliant, that have to make a choice and implement it, even if not everyone agrees.

 

Avatar of Optimissed
heedblank wrote:

I love the concept but most of the times the moves just don't make any sense as to why they are brilliancies and sometimes when you think you found a hard move it turns out it was just a best move 

would it really be that hard to fix the brilliant moves or is it more about chess.com's willingness for it 


It isn't. important because it ndoesn't mean anything in any case.

Avatar of PawnTsunami
heedblank wrote:

I love the concept but most of the times the moves just don't make any sense as to why they are brilliancies and sometimes when you think you found a hard move it turns out it was just a best move 

would it really be that hard to fix the brilliant moves or is it more about chess.com's willingness for it 

I wouldn't put too much stock in "great" and "brilliant" moves in the game analysis.  Those labels are based on you current rating level and often are just odd.  In a recent game, I got 3 consecutive "great" moves in a forcing sequence (basically, you only play the first move when you see the next 2 because the idea was all connected).  I have had other games when I got a "brilliant" or "great" move for literally the only possible move.

Avatar of Knights_of_Doom
tygxc wrote:

++ A true brilliant move satisfies 4 criteria:

  1. It is winning. Losing or drawing moves are not brilliant.
  2. It is unique. When 2 moves win then none is brilliant.
  3. It involves a sacrifice of material. That is aesthetically pleasing.
  4. It is a quiet move: neither check (+), nor capture (x). Those are too obvious.

It should be easy to program that.

That would be easy to program.  However, it isn't a very good definition of "brilliant".  Consider the following position.... by your definition, 1.f7 is brilliant.