Will computers ever solve chess?

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troy7915

In the field that we’re talking about, the evidence is a mass hypnosis, a kind of ‘me too’ movement.

We are talking about things one can see for themselves. We are not talking about things one cannot see, but believe in them anyway, based on knowledge—evidence—again in the field of life, of relationships.

 You either see something or you don’t. Belief is unnecessary, in this field.

Elroch
troy7915 wrote:

 No, not conclusions, that part is clear. Math seems to be correct, I have no problem with that, although it seems strange to be empirical at its root. Regardless, it has its applications, which must continue in that field.

  The point being made was being rooted in beliefs, at its root, it is no wonder that a mathematician’s daily life is also rooted in beliefs. Not talking about inevitable, harmless beliefs like making an appointment and believing it can happen—which involves a lot of factors coming together—or boarding a plane, which is based on the belief that the pilot is a professional, and there are no destabilizing factors, human or natural, and so forth.

  We are talking about other beliefs, which by their very nature divide people, start wars and so lead to death. I mean, there is this image about the scientist that he is neutral and acts logically, rationally and looks at the world impartially. Which is utterly false.

I am completely unfamiliar with this delusion. Can you provide examples of those suffering from it?

He only does that in a very limited field, and in some branches of science,

That is the nature of expertise. Usually ONE branch of science.

when it comes to interpreting the results of certain experiments

Actually that is certainly part of scientific expertise. For example, if one find that a clock sent on a long plane journey is running slow, a scientist interprets this as being due to relativistic effects.

and offer suggestions for the real world,

While any person may do that, this is not what scientists do professionally, Rather they may say that certain actions will result in certain consequences, Many other (relatively wise) people make suggestions based on this objective basis.

his bias as a human being, which is knowledge of psychological nature,  completely wastes the results of his otherwise neutral experiments.

Since this entirely non-specific pontification is getting so wild, you need to provide examples.

But as a human being, the scientist is far from being unbiased.

Surely all humans have their biases. Some are less biased than others, though. 

I was listening the other day to a theoretical physicist, and he seemed very sharp and neutral, unbiased, in talking about various possibilities of our Universe and beyond that. But as soon as the discussion turned to religion or some other mundane day-to-day aspect, he was back to belief, and not of the inevitable kind.

And why shouldn't he be, just like everyone else? This is an entirely subjective topic. Even scientifically absurd claims (that a scientist might refute in an argument) can be easily justified by an appeal to magic.

 

pawn8888
[COMMENT DELETED]
Elroch

This is incorrect, since playing a game and solving a game are entirely distinct things.

troy7915

Not only ‘solving the game,’

 

Playing a game is one thing, and analyzing various positions from the game is another..

Flank_Attacks

.. It's high time, someone posted, a Non-Sequitur, image, on this thread ! ..{lol}

'Fwiw'.. One of the local overnight 'homeless' hangouts/ outdoor-sleeping, locations ; In "Astoria, Oregon", {usa} .. Bridge, spans the "Columbia River," into "Washington State."

 

fdb9ce054fb33ea14117383bcb40ddeb.jpg

pawn8888

If a computer beat a computer at the top level, playing black and won, perhaps that would be a perfect game, since white, even with a slight advantage lost. The person who plays it automatically wins since it beat a 3500 rated computer. Of course you'd have to wait for it to happen first.

ponz111
pawn8888 wrote:

If a computer beat a computer at the top level, playing black and won, perhaps that would be a perfect game, since white, even with a slight advantage lost. The person who plays it automatically wins since it beat a 3500 rated computer. Of course you'd have to wait for it to happen first.

Chess is a draw when neither side makes an error. So, if a computer won a game [with Black] against another strong computer--it would just mean that the computer [with White] made an error.

Flank_Attacks

 

.. Partially related ; In an extremely daunting, computational sense !

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/college/ncaa/article65885602.html

troy7915

Chess is a draw when neither side makes an error,

 

 Just a wild guess, presented as a fact.

ponz111
troy7915 wrote:

Chess is a draw when neither side makes an error,

 

 Just a wild guess, presented as a fact.

Not a wild guess--the evidence is overwhelming that chess is a draw if neither side makes an error.

But there is another forum to debate if chess is a draw?

ai-chen

i think chess win  for white

troy7915
ponz111 wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

Chess is a draw when neither side makes an error,

 

 Just a wild guess, presented as a fact.

Not a wild guess--the evidence is overwhelming that chess is a draw if neither side makes an error.

But there is another forum to debate if chess is a draw?

 

  What one calls ‘evidence’ is in reality just a wild guess. As of now, we don’t know pretty much anything about the final result, since the extremely small part that we know is clearly overwhelmed by the almost infinite remaining part we don’t know, in regards to the complete picture.

  Some simply hang on to the known and forget all about the unknown. 

lfPatriotGames
ponz111 wrote:
pawn8888 wrote:

If a computer beat a computer at the top level, playing black and won, perhaps that would be a perfect game, since white, even with a slight advantage lost. The person who plays it automatically wins since it beat a 3500 rated computer. Of course you'd have to wait for it to happen first.

Chess is a draw when neither side makes an error. So, if a computer won a game [with Black] against another strong computer--it would just mean that the computer [with White] made an error.

Chess is a win for white when neither side makes an error. So, if a computer won a game (with Black) against another strong computer-it would just mean that the computer (with White) made an error.

AntonioEsfandiari

Chess will 99% most likely be a forced draw once we have solved it.  It takes two weaknesses to win, and the value of the king on defense should trump the slight advantage white has.

vickalan
ai-chen wrote:

i think chess win  for white

No proof:
"Chess is a draw"

Contradicts the previous statement, but still no proof:
"Chess is a win for white when neither side makes an error."

Doesn't make sense because once it is solved, percentages aren't necessary:
"Chess will 99% most likely be a forced draw once we have solved it."

Stated perfectly:

"i think chess is a win for white"

Way to go @ai-chen!😊

ponz111

Because the proof of something is not stated here does not mean there is no proof.

davidjones101

Chess is an open-ended problem because theoretically - and practically - a game could involve an infinitely long list of moves.

There is, however, a working assumption that the numerical permutations of positions is soluble to a reasonable degree to the extent that certain positions are just "bad" and others "not bad". This assumption however cannot be proved without testing every conceivable permutation of moves, putting these permutations into a database, then making qualitative value judgments about those positions' solubility.

 

Ergo, chess cannot ever be solved.

USArmyParatrooper
ponz111 wrote:

Because the proof of something is not stated here does not mean there is no proof.

Has chess been solved?  No, then there is no proof.  I think the probability it is a draw is extremely high, given the extraordinary amount of game variations.  A win for white would essentially mean the game starts off with black in a mating net.  With the near endless possible game variations I think the statistical probability that black doesn’t have a single variation that forces a 3 move repeat, a stalemate, a 50 move rule, or insufficient material is quite remote. 

 

 But saying it’s proven to be a draw is an overreach. 

USArmyParatrooper
davidjones101 wrote:

Chess is an open-ended problem because theoretically - and practically - a game could involve an infinitely long list of moves.

There is, however, a working assumption that the numerical permutations of positions is soluble to a reasonable degree to the extent that certain positions are just "bad" and others "not bad". This assumption however cannot be proved without testing every conceivable permutation of moves, putting these permutations into a database, then making qualitative value judgments about those positions' solubility.

 

Ergo, chess cannot ever be solved.

 And unimaginably long list of moves, yes. But literally infinite? No.