Will computers ever solve chess?

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ponz111
Elroch wrote:

ponz, the reason you correctly identified that some of my post was about practical play is that it is practical play that is the basis of the, modest advantage for white that we observe. Such a statistic can result from practical, slightly imperfect play, even in a game where one side has a winning strategy.

One cannot have a winning strategy in theoretical chess as it is a draw. Laughing  [a little joke]

However one can have a winning strategy in practical play. For example i once played The White side of the French Defense against a strong player and he got a draw. Undecided Later i learned he was an expert with the French Defense. So the next time i played him--i opened with 1. c4 Smile

I agree that the White advantage of the first move makes a big difference in practical play. [if that is what you are saying?]

In a post [a week or so ago?] you mentioned  there was some kind of statistic that you observed which gave you some doubts that chess is a draw when neither side made an error?  Am i correct in this?  If so, would you care to give or explain the statistic? 

troy7915
ponz111 wrote:

troy  You apparently do not understand the "either/or" logical fallacy.You were trying to give me 2 very particular choices, when, in fact, my choice would have been something you never mentioned [and apparently did not even consider ].

Also you do not seem to understand that a belief in something can correspond to a fact as soon as you believe that something.

One does not have to "wait" for a belief to also be a fact.

A scientist believed the earth revolves around the sun. When he believed this--it was also a fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

 

  I covered that already. Obviously, if the final outcome of the perfect game is a draw, then it is a draw: it has always been a draw, it is a draw right now, and will always be a draw. Your belief in that outcome or lack of it has no influence on the outcome: it’s still a draw.

 

 But we are not talking about the outcome per se, unrelated to anybody’s perception, but about the outcome from your perspective. There are two facts: 

 Let’s say you are looking around you. You looked as carefully as you could and saw absolutely nothing. However, you strongly believe in the existence of a tree. It doesn’t matter what it is, let’s just make it a tree. Now, one fact is that the tree exists, and it matters not whether you see it or not. It still exists.

 The other fact is your perspective. Do you see it as a fact or do you believe in its existence? The fact that it exists—or in case it doesn’t exist, then the fact is that it doesn’t—is not at stake here. What is at stake is you presenting the tree as a fact that you can see. But remember the beginning premise? You looked and did not see any tree.

 

 Despite its existence, the fact is that you did not see it. You only believed in it. You did not see it—one fact. Despite its existence—another fact. Don’t mix them up in order to justify the lack of seeing, which is the first fact.

 

 Same with the outcome of a perfect game. It may be a draw or it may not. We are only concerned with your presentation as a fact that you can see, that you know it is so. 

 

 And I am saying you do not know that. You only strongly believe so. I already said this, it doesn’t matter if it is true or not, what matters is your dishonest presentation as an absolute fact, as is observable by you.

 And you cannot observe that as a fact, you can only believe that the object of your belief

(incomplete by nature—this act of speculation/belief) is also true (complete by its very nature—the fact itself). But do not try to hide the fact that you are speculating by the existence of the fact itself. You are still speculating, despite your efforts to hide it.

 

 Another quick thing here, in parenthesis, is your meaningless inclusion of other percentages of beliefs. I said weak belief, as in like 1% belief. And strong belief as in like 99% belief. And you correct me saying that there are more percentages possible. Really? Do you understand how mediocre is that observation? It is understood that any other belief is included there. All the percentages and all the comparative degrees. I only outlined the extremes, not eliminated everything in-between. What kinda brain thinks I did that?

 

  Now, that was just the outcome of the perfect game. Next is the perfect move and the perfect game itself. There is no way to determine whether a move is perfect in the opening phase of a game, short of calculating all the variants.

 

  For the third time now,  I have explained that no one has any way of knowing whether the evaluation has changed significantly from one move to another, unless you go through all the sequences of moves. 

 

 You can entertain the speculation that 3. Bb5 does not alter the previous evaluation, but without calculating all the lines it is just a speculation (previous evaluation which is also a speculation, starting with the initial position, but that seems too complicated for some folks).

 

  The problem is that you are not aware it’s a speculation.

 

 Finally, as for that ‘either/or’ scenario, the point was that no matter what was the reason for that belief, strong or weak, logic or fantasy, it was still a belief. It still is. You just can’t see it.

ponz111
troy7915 wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

troy  You apparently do not understand the "either/or" logical fallacy.You were trying to give me 2 very particular choices, when, in fact, my choice would have been something you never mentioned [and apparently did not even consider ].

Also you do not seem to understand that a belief in something can correspond to a fact as soon as you believe that something.

One does not have to "wait" for a belief to also be a fact.

A scientist believed the earth revolves around the sun. When he believed this--it was also a fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

 

  I covered that already. Obviously, if the final outcome of the perfect game is a draw, then it is a draw: it has always been a draw, it is a draw right now, and will always be a draw. Your belief in that outcome or lack of it has no influence on the outcome: it’s still a draw.

 

 But we are not talking about the outcome per se, unrelated to anybody’s perception, but about the outcome from your perspective. There are two facts: 

 Let’s say you are looking around you. You looked as carefully as you could and saw absolutely nothing. However, you strongly believe in the existence of a tree. It doesn’t matter what it is, let’s just make it a tree. Now, one fact is that the tree exists, and it matters not whether you see it or not. It still exists.

 The other fact is your perspective. Do you see it as a fact or do you believe in its existence? The fact that it exists—or in case it doesn’t exist, then the fact is that it doesn’t—is not at stake here. What is at stake is you presenting the tree as a fact that you can see. But remember the beginning premise? You looked and did not see any tree.

 

 Despite its existence, the fact is that you did not see it. You only believed in it. You did not see it—one fact. Despite its existence—another fact. Don’t mix them up in order to justify the lack of seeing, which is the first fact.

 

 Same with the outcome of a perfect game. It may be a draw or it may not. We are only concerned with your presentation as a fact that you can see, that you know it is so. 

 

 And I am saying you do not know that. You only strongly believe so. I already said this, it doesn’t matter if it is true or not, what matters is your dishonest presentation as an absolute fact, as is observable by you.

 And you cannot observe that as a fact, you can only believe that the object of your belief

(incomplete by nature—this act of speculation/belief) is also true (complete by its very nature—the fact itself). But do not try to hide the fact that you are speculating by the existence of the fact itself. You are still speculating, despite your efforts to hide it.

 

 Another quick thing here, in parenthesis, is your meaningless inclusion of other percentages of beliefs. I said weak belief, as in like 1% belief. And strong belief as in like 99% belief. And you correct me saying that there are more percentages possible. Really? Do you understand how mediocre is that observation? It is understood that any other belief is included there. All the percentages and all the comparative degrees. I only outlined the extremes, not eliminated everything in-between. What kinda brain thinks I did that?

 

  Now, that was just the outcome of the perfect game. Next is the perfect move and the perfect game itself. There is no way to determine whether a move is perfect in the opening phase of a game, short of calculating all the variants.

 

  For the third time now,  I have explained that no one has any way of knowing whether the evaluation has changed significantly from one move to another, unless you go through all the sequences of moves. 

 

 You can entertain the speculation that 3. Bb5 does not alter the previous evaluation, but without calculating all the lines it is just a speculation (previous evaluation which is also a speculation, starting with the initial position, but that seems too complicated for some folks).

 

  The problem is that you are not aware it’s a speculation.

 

 Finally, as for that ‘either/or’ scenario, the point was that no matter what was the reason for that belief, strong or weak, logic or fantasy, it was still a belief. It still is. You just can’t see it.

You clearly are making up your own meanings of some words.

And you still do not seem to understand the logical fallacy of "either/or"

And there is no such thing as a belief that is 1%.

 

There once was a chess player named Troy

His opponents he would try to destroy

He had a good plan

It was to use strawman

Although he just succeeded to annoy

ponz111

Lots of laughs, you think i am going to look and see nothing and then believe very strongly it is a tree! Laughing

your attempt at some kind of anology was not very good.

lfPatriotGames
ponz111 wrote:

Lots of laughs, you think i am going to look and see nothing and then believe very strongly it is a tree!

your attempt at some kind of anology was not very good.

Given some of the responses, yes, there are more and more reasons to think that could be exactly what you might believe. Or should I say "know".

DiogenesDue
ponz111 wrote:

Lots of laughs

By the way...you've just recently added this phrase to your lexicon, but have said it several times recently...you do know that "LOL" stands for "laughing out loud" and not "lots of laughs", right?  Just checking.

troy7915

I was not trying to create a ‘perfect analogy’. The point was to quickly get the larger picture. But you are so slow, downright obtuse. The classic example of missing the forest for the trees:you are consistently missing the big picture.

 

 As usual your comprehension of a sentence is mediocre. There was a double ‘or’ implied in that sentence. One side or the other side. The other side had two more sides, another either/or. This is already too much for a simpleton to understand, but I’llexplain for anybody else out there.

  The first side of the balance is belief. The other one is fact. Now the belief side has two more, one is strong belief, one is weak belief. Finally, the strong belief side has two more sides: one is logic, the other is wild fantasy, as sources for that strong belief.

 Now, we are in the strong belief side of the belief. Regardless of where this strong belief comes from, either logic or wild fantasy, it remains on this side, the side of belief. 

 

  The side where the fact resides is not on the same side with belief, whether strong or weak, and whether strong comes from logic or fantasy.

 

 A confused, slow, aging brain has difficulties understanding this, so I’m not holding my breath here.

 

  Other than that, this slow brain has not answered anything. Its evaluation gimmick was exposed and refuted, its reliance on other brains was also exposed and refuted.

 

  And since the main gimmick, the fake evaluation, was refuted, this brain has run out of ways to prove it can recognize a perfect move. By its own definition, mind you.

 

 Therefore this case is closed, as ponz’s crooked logic has been sufficiently exposed, and refuted in its entirety.

 

 However, upon turning new evidence, the case can be reopen. Also, anybody out there, if they think there is a way to find a perfect move other than in a position with an obvious sequence of forced mate or draw, please step forward and make your case.

ponz111
btickler wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

Lots of laughs

By the way...you've just recently added this phrase to your lexicon, but have said it several times recently...you do know that "LOL" stands for "laughing out loud" and not "lots of laughs", right?  Just checking.

I know this--just prefir "Lots of laughs" Smile

ponz111

Love it when someone states "this case is closed" as it shows a person with a completely closed mind! Laughing

ponz111
lfPatriotGames wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

Lots of laughs, you think i am going to look and see nothing and then believe very strongly it is a tree!

your attempt at some kind of anology was not very good.

Given some of the responses, yes, there are more and more reasons to think that could be exactly what you might believe. Or should I say "know".

There once was a chess player named I P Games

Lamentably she had nefarious aims

She tried to decieve

But who would believe

Really her endeavour was not to defame?

troy7915

It’s closed because page after page you are not saying anything relevant to the case. Speculation after speculation after speculation. 

 From the beginning it was made clear that as a speculation you can say anything you like.  After all, as Elroch noted, unlike in science, here the end result is much more simple: you have a 33.33% chance of being correct. So as a speculation no one is arguing with you here.

 

 The only argument was blindly presenting a speculation as a fact. Here, you were unable to justify it as anything other than a speculation.

 

  This is about the outcome of a perfect game. Recognizing a perfect move is a purely delirious notion, as your main tool, recognizing how the evaluation changes without having any idea of the wild jungle of the variations, is immediately refuted , intrinsically.

 

  It’s closed because you are pretending to say something which contributes in some ways to this discussion, while in reality you are saying nothing related to it.

ponz111
troy7915 wrote:

It’s closed because page after page you are not saying anything relevant to the case. Speculation after speculation after speculation. 

 From the beginning it was made clear that as a speculation you can say anything you like.  After all, as Elroch noted, unlike in science, here the end result is much more simple: you have a 33.33% chance of being correct. So as a speculation no one is arguing with you here.

 

 The only argument was blindly presenting a speculation as a fact. Here, you were unable to justify it as anything other than a speculation.

 

  This is about the outcome of a perfect game. Recognizing a perfect move is a purely delirious notion, as your main tool, recognizing how the evaluation changes without having any idea of the wild jungle of the variations, is immediately refuted , intrinsically.

 

  It’s closed because you are pretending to say something which contributes in some ways to this discussion, while in reality you are saying nothing related to it.

 

Yes sir! Mr.closed mind sir! You go ahead and redefine words and use all your logical fallacies and your very poor anologies and then think you are correct!LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

troy7915

Still nothing. It’s been nothing for many, many pages now. 

 

 If you have something concrete to present which remotely shows how to spot a perfect move, we’re all ears. So far, just dishonesty and serious intellectual challenges which prevent an elementary comprehension.

 

  If you think somebody missed some part of your reasoning, be my guest, show us. 

 

  If anybody else can understand this obtuse mind, please tell us what he’s trying to say in support of being able to spot a perfect move. Anybody at all.

woodenchessboard

He is trying to prove his "intellect"

 

troy7915

Right.

 Just to be clear, I’m not questioning his ability as a player. He could have been 10 times stronger than Kasparov, the logic stands. At present, the perfect move cannot be found.

 What’s so difficult in understanding this? If I’m missing something, please bring it up. Bring up a way to detect a perfect move, in general, but especially in the opening phase.

godsofhell1235
troy7915 wrote:

Right.

 Just to be clear, I’m not questioning his ability as a player. He could have been 10 times stronger than Kasparov, the logic stands. At present, the perfect move cannot be found.

Obviously perfect moves can be found... some can even be verified as perfect... some are even trivially easy to verify.

 What’s so difficult in understanding this? If I’m missing something, please bring it up. Bring up a way to detect a perfect move, in general, but especially in the opening phase.

In general, if it's the first move in a sequence which is the shortest forced mate available, then it's a "perfect" move.

In the opening it's easy to play a perfect move. There are only 20 options for white on move 1. So whatever the perfect move is, it's been played. Thousands of times. There is no way to verify which move(s) it is though.

troy7915

That’s why I excluded relatively short forcing mating sequences. That is obvious.

 

 First move? This is dicey. What if White loses by force no matter what? In that case no move is ‘perfect’ as every choice is equally imperfect. Same for Black’s first move. Without knowing the outcome of every game, labeling certain moves ‘perfect’ seems incorrect.

 

  

godsofhell1235

If white loses by force, then it's the same argument. Black has 20 different first moves, all of which have already been played 1000s of times.

godsofhell1235

 Also tablebases give perfect play for all positions with 6 pieces or less, and some for 7.

godsofhell1235

 Anyway, chess is vast, and hard to play at a high level, but it's not supernatural. Logic will always apply.

Checkmate ends the game. Checkmate, at its elemental level, is just mobility (or rather lack thereof).

Our strategic concepts are already based off mobility.

So are engine's strategic concepts. And so was alpha zero's, which taught itself completely independently of humans.

Even the basic relative values (9,5,3,3,1) are based on mobility and (nearly) those exact values have been verified statistically (kauffman).

 

It's silly to pretend we don't already know how chess works. We're not perfect, but many moves of strong players are perfect. Many moves of strong engines are perfect.

"But you can't prove it"

No I can't. I also can't prove the sun will rise tomorrow. Proofs don't exist outside of mathematics. In any case it's more likely than not, there's a preponderance of evidence, whatever phrase you want to use, it's still true players can play perfect for at least some sequence of moves.

"but a perfect player would be rated 5000 or something"

So what? It only takes 1 move to lose the game. You can play 100 perfect moves and lose on move 101.