Will Fischer Random chess now also become more popular and accepted on all levels?

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Avatar of idoun
btickler wrote:
 

"Generally considered" by whom?  10 years for a GM to learn an opening they are actively studying is clearly overstating by an order of magnitude at the very least. 

Opening theory for 960 will clearly not focus on individual opening books/databases for every 960 starting position, but will adapt to create opening strategies for various configurations that share various characteristics (rook next to king, bishops in the corner, etc.)...as it already has

The figure is frequently mentioned in chess books by GMs; I did not come up with it. And that is to play an opening at the highest level. As the references are before computers became mainstream, let's shorten it to 1 year. Is that satisfactory for you? With 1 year, it is still 960 years to learn one opening for 1 color for each of the 960 positions. Still not feasible by orders of magnitude. 

To your second point about openings, yes obviously opening strategies will develop and it is infeasible to memorize specific lines. That is the point that I made. But @Ziryab stated "enthusiasm will wane as people realize that even with 960 starting positions, opening theory is developing. Given the failure to erase the influence of theory."

which clearly implies memorized lines. And virtually everyone today uses "opening theory" to mean specific sequences of moves. You can find thousands of references of "opening theory" that supports that definition. Just look at the wikipedia section on chess opening theory,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_theory, and you will see that 90% of the discussion is on specific opening lines. 

You are completely missing the point because no one criticizes chess960 because it has opening principles. But one of the criticisms that is made (by Ziryab above, GM Hammer is another example) is that there would be too much opening theory in chess960 (specifically referring to memorized lines). 

Avatar of staples13

Magnus Carlsen is an embarrassment L

Avatar of staples13
darwinwasright wrote:

fisher remained his whole life as a 13 year old boy that acted like a petulant child and said any mean thing he wanted with no filter. Fischer was not mentally ill just stunted emotionally and educationally. Picasso didnt teach physics and Fischer didn't play well with others away from the board such is genius

You don’t think Fischer was mentally ill? This was a man who had all of his fillings removed because he was convinced the Soviets were spying on him through the fillings in his teeth. 

Avatar of DiogenesDue
idoun wrote:
 

The figure is frequently mentioned in chess books by GMs; I did not come up with it. And that is to play an opening at the highest level. As the references are before computers became mainstream, let's shorten it to 1 year. Is that satisfactory for you? With 1 year, it is still 960 years to learn one opening for 1 color for each of the 960 positions. Still not feasible by orders of magnitude. 

To your second point about openings, yes obviously opening strategies will develop and it is infeasible to memorize specific lines. That is the point that I made. But @Ziryab stated "enthusiasm will wane as people realize that even with 960 starting positions, opening theory is developing. Given the failure to erase the influence of theory."

which clearly implies memorized lines. And virtually everyone today uses "opening theory" to mean specific sequences of moves. You can find thousands of references of "opening theory" that supports that definition. Just look at the wikipedia section on chess opening theory,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_theory, and you will see that 90% of the discussion is on specific opening lines. 

You are completely missing the point because no one criticizes chess960 because it has opening principles. But one of the criticisms that is made (by Ziryab above, GM Hammer is another example) is that there would be too much opening theory in chess960 (specifically referring to memorized lines). 

Sure, many books probably say things like "it took Caruana 10 years to reach his current level of mastery in the Petrov"...but that is not what you claimed.  Learning an opening at the "highest level" does not mean becoming one of the top 10 super GMs in the world at some opening or variation thereof.  If you actually have a link to a quote from a reputable GM saying that it takes them 10 years to learn an opening well enough to play it competently and confidently against their peers, go ahead and trot it out wink.png.

Opening lines on Wikipedia constituting "opening theory" is about the same as saying that the Theory of Evolution is all about moths because that's the example used in the Wikipedia article.  

Ziryab is right on two counts:

- People would still try to create opening lines for 960, leading some people to give up when it becomes impossible to play and prep the way they have become accustomed to

- Once it became clear that 960 was not some panacea for leveling the playing field in the opening phase (i.e. they would still have to put effort in...), a whole different set of people would give up

The point is, it's a very steep uphill climb for 960 to become the standard variant of chess, even with all it's advantages (and I like 960 a lot).  I like the reasons I gave better for why it probably won't happen wink.png, but there are plenty of reasons.  Some others:

- In spite of many people's claims of wanting to rid ourselves of engine domination, a large number of players are now dependent on the crutch of engines and don't know how to prep openings without databases and engines blunder checking lines for them

- The spread of information and the connected-ness of the Internet actually makes it harder to usurp the classic opening position as being "official", not easier

The answer to the OP's question is yes, but there's a vast gulf between popularity and acceptance and actually becoming the standard variant of chess.

Avatar of Andrew_2600

The OP is a s*upid troll. Who pays people to come on and make statements like his in the initial message, is known.

Avatar of Ziryab
idoun wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
idoun wrote:

 Fischer Random is the future of chess and will replace chess. 

 

You are wrong, of course. It may grow in popularity for a few years, but enthusiasm will wane as people realize that even with 960 starting positions, opening theory is developing. Given the failure to erase the influence of theory, folks will return to the richest of these 960 possibilities (the one we’ve been playing for hundreds of years, it turns out).

And how do you figure that the "richest" of the 960 positions is the one we have been playing? 

 

Aesthetics.

Avatar of Ziryab

https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-problem-with-chess960

Avatar of BL4D3RUNN3R

It's simple. People don't like it and it will remain a small variant forever. They tried to boost 12 years ago, in vain. Fun fact: even other variations are played more often. 

 

 

Avatar of KoldC45E

Idouin, that`s maybe because most of professional chess player ( I`m not a pro, never play OTB tourney like you), who play RandomFischer still do not consider the RandomFischer as their official strength themselves,, just another variant to reduce boredom of playing the classical chesswink.png But maybe things could change in the future, when popularity make the prize similar to classical chess...

Avatar of Sharkboy2311

Hey fisher

Avatar of forked_again
BL4D3RUNN3R wrote:

It's simple. People don't like it and it will remain a small variant forever. They tried to boost 12 years ago, in vain. Fun fact: even other variations are played more often. 

 

 

But it seems that most of the best chess players in the world love 960.  Maybe you should have a meeting with them all and enlighten them with your brilliant insight.

Avatar of staples13

I like chess 960

Avatar of Nordlandia

it boggles my mind why Seirawan or Capablanca and Gothic chess is given so little attention by the broad chess community. I suppose most chess players are so old-fashioned and "boring" 

Avatar of BL4D3RUNN3R

Some world-class players are hardly "most". No, it's just an unsuccessful minority attack. When was your last chess960 game in your local club?

 

PS: the top seed players take the money if offered and invited, aint't they?

Avatar of Ziryab
Nordlandia wrote:

it boggles my mind why Seirawan or Capablanca and Gothic chess is given so little attention by the broad chess community. I suppose most chess players are so old-fashioned and "boring" 

 

Seirawan chess is quite interesting. 

Avatar of Nordlandia
Ziryab wrote:
Nordlandia wrote:

it boggles my mind why Seirawan or Capablanca and Gothic chess is given so little attention by the broad chess community. I suppose most chess players are so old-fashioned and "boring" 

 

Seirawan chess is quite interesting. 

 

Yeah i know but why chess players in general avoid it? i see no GMs beside Yasser that play it on regular basic. 

Avatar of idoun
btickler wrote:
idoun wrote:
 

The figure is frequently mentioned in chess books by GMs; I did not come up with it. And that is to play an opening at the highest level. As the references are before computers became mainstream, let's shorten it to 1 year. Is that satisfactory for you? With 1 year, it is still 960 years to learn one opening for 1 color for each of the 960 positions. Still not feasible by orders of magnitude. 

To your second point about openings, yes obviously opening strategies will develop and it is infeasible to memorize specific lines. That is the point that I made. But @Ziryab stated "enthusiasm will wane as people realize that even with 960 starting positions, opening theory is developing. Given the failure to erase the influence of theory."

which clearly implies memorized lines. And virtually everyone today uses "opening theory" to mean specific sequences of moves. You can find thousands of references of "opening theory" that supports that definition. Just look at the wikipedia section on chess opening theory,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_theory, and you will see that 90% of the discussion is on specific opening lines. 

You are completely missing the point because no one criticizes chess960 because it has opening principles. But one of the criticisms that is made (by Ziryab above, GM Hammer is another example) is that there would be too much opening theory in chess960 (specifically referring to memorized lines). 

Sure, many books probably say things like "it took Caruana 10 years to reach his current level of mastery in the Petrov"...but that is not what you claimed.  Learning an opening at the "highest level" does not mean becoming one of the top 10 super GMs in the world at some opening or variation thereof.  If you actually have a link to a quote from a reputable GM saying that it takes them 10 years to learn an opening well enough to play it competently and confidently against their peers, go ahead and trot it out .

Opening lines on Wikipedia constituting "opening theory" is about the same as saying that the Theory of Evolution is all about moths because that's the example used in the Wikipedia article.  

Ziryab is right on two counts:

- People would still try to create opening lines for 960, leading some people to give up when it becomes impossible to play and prep the way they have become accustomed to

- Once it became clear that 960 was not some panacea for leveling the playing field in the opening phase (i.e. they would still have to put effort in...), a whole different set of people would give up

The point is, it's a very steep uphill climb for 960 to become the standard variant of chess, even with all it's advantages (and I like 960 a lot).  I like the reasons I gave better for why it probably won't happen , but there are plenty of reasons.  Some others:

- In spite of many people's claims of wanting to rid ourselves of engine domination, a large number of players are now dependent on the crutch of engines and don't know how to prep openings without databases and engines blunder checking lines for them

- The spread of information and the connected-ness of the Internet actually makes it harder to usurp the classic opening position as being "official", not easier

The answer to the OP's question is yes, but there's a vast gulf between popularity and acceptance and actually becoming the standard variant of chess.

I have no idea why you quoted me because you made up literally every point in your post, and then responded to your own invented points. 

- People would still try to create opening lines for 960, leading some people to give up when it becomes impossible to play and prep the way they have become accustomed to

I really don't know what you mean here, so am not even going to try to speculate. 

- Once it became clear that 960 was not some panacea for leveling the playing field in the opening phase (i.e. they would still have to put effort in...), a whole different set of people would give up

When did anyone claim that 960 was supposed to level the playing field in the opening? I have never heard this argument before. 

Avatar of idoun
BL4D3RUNN3R wrote:

Some world-class players are hardly "most". No, it's just an unsuccessful minority attack. When was your last chess960 game in your local club?

 

PS: the top seed players take the money if offered and invited, aint't they?

You haven't been paying attention. GMs are overwhelmingly in favor of chess960. I have heard 1 GM make negative comments about it and easily 30 who have made positive comments. And that is probably a huge understatement. Chess960 comes up all the time in live chess broadcasts (including twitch streamers) so it's easy to get a huge number of GM opinions on it. 

I play chess960 all the time OTB. And have played in 960 OTB tournaments. 

Avatar of idoun
Nordlandia wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
Nordlandia wrote:

it boggles my mind why Seirawan or Capablanca and Gothic chess is given so little attention by the broad chess community. I suppose most chess players are so old-fashioned and "boring" 

 

Seirawan chess is quite interesting. 

 

Yeah i know but why chess players in general avoid it? i see no GMs beside Yasser that play it on regular basic. 

Because it requires special pieces. 

Avatar of MurderBlood
staples13 wrote:

I like chess 960

Me too.