Would a 75 Move Rule be better than a 50 Move Rule?

The 75M and 5REP rules were decided after discussions of the OTB specialists with the digital specialists. But long before that point the chess sites had already introduced policies to make playing online chess workable. Not being controlled by FIDE, they now apparently feel no need to change their minds about it in spite of what was agreed. They will probably argue that their customers are used to the old system and that it works fine. They do have a point there. How often does it happen that both players really wish to continue after the 50M mark is crossed? The 75M rule looks very much like one of those compromises where everyone asks in hindsight what did we do that for?

Why 75 and not 100? And it blitz, it doesn't even matter as they are making 3 moves a second by then. You should look up the youtube video called "50 move rule claim gone wrong" and in a rook v knight endgame, the guy tried to claim 50 moves when he was 2 moves away from being checkmated...3 times! 1 claim every ply he was trying to mate. They wasted more time arguing about it then just letting the extra move play out and the game could have ended.

Why have limits?

FIDE has removed the 50 move limit for the majority of games, but they are still limited by the repetition rule. Would you advocate removing that as well?

I believe in limits. My question is aimed at those posting here who seem to want to extend them further and further.

whew, i thought you'd gone all Bruce Lee there, and couldn't work out why I was so uncomfortable with that for a change xD

I don't think MARattigan's contention is correct. The fact that they've removed this rule from the basic set, only leaving it in section on competition rules, is probably of very little consequence. Simply put, any rated games played are likely to be subject to the competition rules. Apart from the USCF, virtually all federations have adopted the FIDE rules wholesale.

You're assuming that the majority of games are rated games. I don't think that would be the case.

It is a misunderstanding to believe that the changes in the latest handbook with regard to basic rules and competition rules somehow places these rules in two differently ranked classes. A long time before this distinction was made by FIDE I often referred to, what are now the competition rules, as administrative, time management or game management rules. The reason was that these rules required special adaptations in composition chess and had special effects on solving problems. For instance, when solving a checkmate in 2 problem you like to be sure that the position after your key move did not occur for the 3rd time! MARattigan has made a similar observation with regard to avoiding a possible 50M mark at the start of a solution.

FIDE now makes the distinction for a similar practical reason, e.g. see the rapid game section. In some competition forms and certainly out of competitions it is impossible to independently verify whether or not certain competiton rules should have been activated at some point during the game. That is why you find repeated references to the presence of qualified arbiters. It is sort of silly to believe that things were different before the latest handbook. Do you think that OTB players without scoresheet could claim 50M transgression 5 years ago? Instead they would shake hands on the agreeable perception that the game lasted too long and that would then be their private 'competition rule'. FIDE only legalized what was already happening on a daily basis and added constraints to the conditions.

Most certainly the rules are not changed for the chess compositions though no composition is fought in a competitive chess game. It is not at all relevant whether or not there is a competitive game, What matters is that the rules must be verifiable and enforcable which is mostly the case in the composition environment. You will not find these things in the FIDE handbook as it leaves the rules for chess compositions to the WFCC, the independent organization of problemists. I bet you didn't know that. Every diagram with a "checkmate in 3 moves" stipulation should follow the laws of the WFCC and not those of FIDE!

Note: I believe FIDE intends its handbook to be axiomatic. It defines the rules which apply in certain competition forms but it does not define the rules outside these competitions. For instance, FIDE does not say that 50M does not apply to out-of-formal-competition games. It just doesn't care because verification is out of reach. So you can make up your own competition rules there. However, if you do, and you publish your games, you'd better tell us which rules you changed or invented. Or accept the risk of a FAKE rating on your games.

Unless you play almost exclusively against a computer, I fail to see the relevance. If you don't play rated games, waiving of the 50-move rule or any other competition rule is fine. No one will protest. However, just as Arisktotle points out, if you play rated games, you're not free to change the rules.

The rules are not made for me personally. Many people play lots of games against the computer or with family and friends or at school or in chess clubs or in pubs or in correspondence, all unrated. I would say that the great majority of games are unrated. Generally people will take the FIDE basic rules as the rules in force for these games.

So I think my contention that the 50 move rule has been removed for the majority of games was correct.

The fact that people generally agreed a draw in these games rather than invoking the 50 move rule even when it was in effect doesn't alter that. The agreed draw is in the basic rules. The 50 move rule was designed to deal with obstinate opponents who don't agree a draw. In that case the player could start counting and probably would have started counting when an endgame like KBNK came up anyway. That's no use now.

If you think unrated games are of little consequence, then of course you will think the change in the rules is of little consequence, but that's your own judgement. People who only ever play unrated games, which again could well be the majority, would have a different judgement. But whatever judgement people may have it doesn't alter the fact that FIDE has removed the rule for the majority of games.

An interesting episode with some of the history of the 50 move rule.

http://chessskill.blogspot.com/2016/06/max-judds-draw-claim.html

Max Judd should be better known.

@MARattigan: 

The private competition rule I referred to was not agreeing on a draw, but agreeing on the basis of the game taking too long - as a subjective way to fill in for the missing 50M count. There are many ad hoc contract options for that, e.g. (after 10 minutes lack of progress) let's both take 5 extra minutes and play 20 extra moves and then call it too long. Players in less serious environments hardly ever start counting at the point where they should though I know for sure there is one human being who does . Note that both players must first agree to count in a particular position to prevent a one-sided 50M dictate.

When it comes to numbers, the larger portion of chess playing humanity never heard of 50M and never played by that rule. The reason it that FIDE is not for them. FIDE only exists for organized chess players and only made rules for organized chess players. The split made between competition rules and basic rules is a split for games within the community of organized chess players. Read the sections on rapid/blitz play and note it describes options with and without competition rules based on feasibility. Neither the basic rules nor the competition rules apply to the out-of-competition community since they are none of the FIDE business and have never been. That is why the WFCC can do as they like with the rules. They make chess problems but they do not play organized games.

By the way, the new setup has the advantage that the basic rules more or less describe what players at home would need to know about playing chess. In the time of internet it enables them to quickly access the real rules of chess which is often contentious amongst hobby players. Previous editions of the laws would certainly have confused them.

The FIDE basic rules don't say that you mustn't have extra rules in force. Obviously any such rules shouldn't contradict the official rules. Agreeing on the basis of the game taking too long doesn't violate that. It's an agreed draw under art. 5.2.3.

Neither did failing to start counting at the point they should violate the rules. The old art. 5.2e was an optional claim. Players in rated games routinely fail to claim when they could too.

I never came across an adult player (including in Holland) who was unaware of the 50 move rule. In any of the chess clubs where I've played games FIDE rules was the assumption, but in case of argument about the rules I think the majority of players would accept the FIDE rules as authoritative.

From the FIDE handbook chapter 1 art 1.3:

The purpose and aim of FIDE are the diffusion and development of chess among all nations of the world, as well as the raising of the level of chess culture and knowledge on a sporting, scientific, creative, educational and cultural basis.

This is not saying, "we're only applicable to FIDE tournaments". From art.1.4:

FIDE issues the rules of chess and the provisions pertaining to the organisation of the World Chess Championships and all other FIDE chess competitions.

I read that to mean FIDE issues (the rules of chess) and (the provisions pertaining ...) rather than FIDE issues (the rules of chess and the provisions) pertaining ... I think that's at any rate what is perceived by the larger chess playing community.

So I wouldn't agree with your idea that FIDE is not for the hoi polloi. As I read the rules the split between Basic Rules and Competition Rules is a split between FIDE regulated tournaments and the rest. (It used to be called Rules of Play and Tournament Rules last millenium). The Rules of Play (Basic Rules) are what players who don't spend their life involved with tournaments would consult in case doubt. And they don't have a 50 move rule any more. 

MARattigan: 'Fide chess tournaments' are all tournaments which are officially registered for rating purposes. As for the rest of your argument, they've just separated Basic Rules and Competitions Rules because there was considerable overlap between them. Over the course of many years (coinciding with the introduction of increment play and online forums discussing the rules) the rules were updated virtually every two years or even more frequently, and this lead to inconsistences and redundancies.

OK, but I don't follow how having two sets of rules would lead to fewer inconsistencies than a single set.

Are you saying FIDE rules should be ignored in friendly games, at the chess club say, and if so would the 50 move rule be in force or not? FIDE should publicise the fact, because there is a widespread feeling among the general public, in Europe at least, that FIDE is the ultimate authority governing these. 

The problems discussed earlier regarding the 50 move rule of course apply whether it's in force or not, regardless of who is accepted as the authority. 

No, I'm not saying that, only that you can do as you like in friendly games, because they're not FIDE-rated. Personally I'm all in favour of sticking to FIDE's competition rules also in friendly games. Makes it easier.

I guess the 50 move format is more than enough........

Good Luck

But getting hold of the clocks can be difficult sometimes if you're on the train. I usually prefer basic rules.

The FIDE rules are completely irrelevant in chess games outside of FIDE tournaments and it doesn't matter what rules FIDE considers 'basic' rules. What matters is what the chess players think or the chess club thinks. The basic rules of chess are not decided by FIDE. I am pretty sure that the large majority includes the 50 move rule in the basic rules unless they don't care to cover all cases within the rules. You need some rule in case no progress is made and the 50 move rule is the most used rule. In friendly games players may not bother to count the moves though, but most people aren't that stubborn when the position is clearly a draw. People either use rules to cover all cases or they decide what should happen when such a situation occurs on the board. The 50 move rule is rarely used anyway.