Fair play and the use of Books and online resources (in Daily's)

nrc382

Hello, please note english is not my natural tongue, so excuse any error on my part.

I'm now playing, here on this site, only daily's games and for study proposes. 
To make long story short: I do "use" many (physical) books and even online resources (like chessgames.com) to play and study my games (as i play, because this is my understanding of daily game).
I do tend to not doing it when i play tournament, where my focus is to study each position on board -but this is just a "scruple" of mine. 

Reading somes forum's post or somes user's note about fair play "understanding" i'm now confused: i really don't what to be, or neither be marked, as a cheater. 
I've been thinking to write a note on my profile to mention that, but first I would like to have a clearer idea of the users' opinion about this topic.
Thanks in advance. 



Martin_Stahl

You can use those things in Daily chess.

You cant use Engines, Tablebases, ask other people for suggestions or use databases of primarily engine games or databases that include numerical engine evaluations of positions.

 

https://support.chess.com/customer/en/portal/articles/1444879-fair-play-on-chess-com-what-you-need-to-know

nrc382

Thank you for your intervention! 
can you please explain me what do yo mean for:  "databases of primarily engine games" and also what's a "numerical engine evaluations of positions". I do look for games and i read books that analyze those games.

[EDIT]
it says: 

  • In Daily Chess (turn-based games with several days per move), you may consult books or databases (including the Chess.com Explorerfor opening moves. "Tablebases" - which are specialized databases of particular endgame positions - may NOT be used at any time. Further, you may not consult an engine to provide an opinion on your opening database, self-preparation or analysis that would relate to a particular game-in-progress on Chess.com.

So as i understand books and databases are permitted (but they says for opening position, databases i know also include complete games)
I newer knew about Tablebases and i would never ask my game to a program (i even find it hard to ask people!) but as i see with my conduct I am violating the regulation...

[EDIT 2]

Reading here: https://www.chess.com/article/view/chess-com-fair-play-and-cheat-detection rises my worries. Even if the hardest tone are for computer aid, someone talk also about books and games databases…

___________
anyway it's not clear, to me: https://support.chess.com/customer/portal/articles/1444922-fair-play-policy

Martin_Stahl

Basically, databases with mostly games between engines is a risky idea and ahould be avoided. Databases that include positions with engine evaluations, such as +1.5, -2.1, etc, also can't be used.

 

You can also follow DB games as far as you want, though that isn't necessarily a good idea, because just because a position gets reached doesn't mean the position is good wink.png

 

 

MayCaesar

I personally think that the best approach is to play every game to the best of your ability without any external assistance, and then AFTER the game to analyze it and look up the opening or the endgame theory for what you could have done better. Studying the position of your game with external assistance is a grey area, at best, and I would refrain from doing that. Of course you are allowed to use the integrated chess.com board to play around with variations, as well as the opening explorer (that's what it's there for), but other than that I wouldn't use online resources for anything.

 

Books are fine though, they are how you improve at chess in general, and you are not only allowed to use them, but probably even encouraged to! happy.png

MGleason

In daily chess, using books is fine.  Using a database of mostly human games is fine - for example, it's OK to refer to the chess.com game explorer, as this is a database of human games.

What is not permitted:

1. Using an engine.  Note: this includes checking your opponent's moves, as that can give you information such as whether they've overlooked a tactic.  If you think your opponent might be cheating, either check their other games, ask someone else to take a look, or wait until the game is completed.

2. Asking another person for help.

3. Using endgame tablebases.

4. Using a database of mostly engine games (i.e. you can't run a million Stockfish vs. Stockfish games and use the resulting database as a reference during your games).

5. Using a database that includes engine evaluations.  For example, if each position has been evaluated by the engine and given a score such as +0.3, -0.7, etc., you can't refer to that during your games.

 

In live chess, you are not permitted to use assistance of any kind.  No books, no databases, nothing.  You're on your own.

 

Of course, after a game is finished or before it starts, you can do anything you want.  You can check your completed game with an engine.  You can run a million Stockfish vs. Stockfish games and use the results to help you with opening preparation before the game starts - you just can't refer to that database during the game.

nrc382

Thanks for all those feedback. In particular, @MGleason thanks for your precision.

 



I never think about computer to computer games (now i'm curious) and now i understand what's the point of those numbers in some video i saw (or the ones on top of analysis tab on this site). Also now i know those endgame tablebases do exists.

As far as i know not-paying user can't use this opening explorer (and so i found chessgames.com to be a good way to study openings, too).
So i think i'll be fair as far as i see, read or listen to passive humans (passive 'cause cant give me direct feedback) and basically this is what i consider "study". 
Thanks again, i can now continue to play! happy.png 



@MayCaesar, i play here basically daily's and often tournaments. (i try not to have more than 4/5 game per time, but may be more than 10, simultaneous, 2/3 day per move. )
I do study chess every day not because of a particular game, but because i like it. I watch (and often re-watch) at least 1 lecture a day from Saint Louis chess club or related (where the point is to analyze games) ad also i read a lot. Some times may happen that a game remind me to a position in a board i'm still playing or, and this happen not rarely, i'd like to bring in my games some ideas i saw. (and than i'ld like to study more and more...)
Basically daily's are (at least to me) not normal games where you just face your opponent: in 2 or 3 days per move you have your complete life, all your experiences (even the ones from the other games...)... I also think that the best approach is to play every game to the best of personal ability without any external assistance ( and then, AFTER the game, to analyze... ) but how it can be in daily's?  

MGleason

Free members can use the chess.com game explorer, but they only have access to the first few moves.  However, there are a lot of other databases out there.

nrc382

happy.png having shown 5 moves, without alternative lines to be covered, can't give you an opening's idea to me (but yes, there are a lot of resources out there)

prof_frink

Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I'm doing my first daily game and I have a question:

 

Would browsing old forum posts wherein people give their opinions about certain opening moves constitute "outside assistance from other people," or would it fall under "books, magazines, or other articles," as outlined in the rules? I'm guessing the latter, but I'm not sure.

 

I also consult Chess.com's Opening Explorer and online articles discussing the merits and demerits of different opening lines. I assuming this would be permitted, correct?

 

Just don't want to do anything against the rules.

Martin_Stahl

Yes, using static resources is fine. If a post has a ton of numerical engine evaluations, you might want to stay away, but otherwise, they are no different than books or articles.

 

edit: just don't start posting on the topic asking for new ideas. 

prof_frink

Cool, thanks! happy.png

MGleason

Yeah, an old forum post is 100% legit, just like a book.  A youtube video is the same.

Now, if someone were to pick one of your games in progress and analyse that publicly, that wouldn't be OK.  But that's pretty unlikely.

Bad_Dobby_Fischer
MGleason wrote:

In daily chess, using books is fine.  Using a database of mostly human games is fine - for example, it's OK to refer to the chess.com game explorer, as this is a database of human games.

What is not permitted:

1. Using an engine.  Note: this includes checking your opponent's moves, as that can give you information such as whether they've overlooked a tactic.  If you think your opponent might be cheating, either check their other games, ask someone else to take a look, or wait until the game is completed.

2. Asking another person for help.

3. Using endgame tablebases.

4. Using a database of mostly engine games (i.e. you can't run a million Stockfish vs. Stockfish games and use the resulting database as a reference during your games).

5. Using a database that includes engine evaluations.  For example, if each position has been evaluated by the engine and given a score such as +0.3, -0.7, etc., you can't refer to that during your games.

 

In live chess, you are not permitted to use assistance of any kind.  No books, no databases, nothing.  You're on your own.

 

Of course, after a game is finished or before it starts, you can do anything you want.  You can check your completed game with an engine.  You can run a million Stockfish vs. Stockfish games and use the results to help you with opening preparation before the game starts - you just can't refer to that database during the game.

any books, not only opening books?

Martin_Stahl

Yeah, any books would be fine and has historically been for correspondence chess.

MGleason

It would be fine, for example, to refer to an endgame book to help you with endgames.

Bad_Dobby_Fischer

can i refer to a book with games in it?

MGleason

Yes.  That's no different from a database.