Insufficient material - bishop vs 2 pawns - why this is a draw?

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Avatar of Lagomorph
NowCheckM8 wrote:

How does someone get to this ELO and not know that it's impossible to checkmate with only a king and bishop?


The confusion arises because of the difference between FIDE and USCF rules.

Under FIDE the position in the original post would be a win for black because mate is possible (no matter how unlikely).

Under USCF the result is a draw because mate cannot be forced.

Avatar of KMMCS88
NowCheckM8 wrote:

How does someone get to this ELO and not know that it's impossible to checkmate with only a king and bishop?

If someone has only a king and bishop, the absolute best outcome you are playing for is a draw.

I'm in a daily game right now where I have two connected passed pawns and a king and the other guy has a bishop and king. He's successfully blocked me to the point where I know I cannot ever promote unless he literally allows me to and he is refusing to accept a draw LOL. I'm the only one at this point with winning chances of any kind and he insists on playing it out.

It's going to be so hilarious if he screws this up and I manage to promote. What an idiot.

What made him finally accept the draw?

Avatar of Reef_Drop
KMMCS88 wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

How does someone get to this ELO and not know that it's impossible to checkmate with only a king and bishop?

If someone has only a king and bishop, the absolute best outcome you are playing for is a draw.

I'm in a daily game right now where I have two connected passed pawns and a king and the other guy has a bishop and king. He's successfully blocked me to the point where I know I cannot ever promote unless he literally allows me to and he is refusing to accept a draw LOL. I'm the only one at this point with winning chances of any kind and he insists on playing it out.

It's going to be so hilarious if he screws this up and I manage to promote. What an idiot.

What made him finally accept the draw?

I think he finally came around and realized he had nothing to play for and the offer for a draw was the best thing for him.

Avatar of Reef_Drop
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

How does someone get to this ELO and not know that it's impossible to checkmate with only a king and bishop?


The confusion arises because of the difference between FIDE and USCF rules.

Under FIDE the position in the original post would be a win for black because mate is possible (no matter how unlikely).

Under USCF the result is a draw because mate cannot be forced.

I see what you mean but I'm honestly not even seeing how it's possible in that position.

Avatar of KMMCS88
NowCheckM8 wrote:
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

How does someone get to this ELO and not know that it's impossible to checkmate with only a king and bishop?


The confusion arises because of the difference between FIDE and USCF rules.

Under FIDE the position in the original post would be a win for black because mate is possible (no matter how unlikely).

Under USCF the result is a draw because mate cannot be forced.

I see what you mean but I'm honestly not even seeing how it's possible in that position.

White promotes one of their Pawns to a Knight or a Bishop and gets mated in the corner.

It could happen.

Avatar of Reef_Drop

Also, someone else pointed it out, but this would have been a draw in a FIDE game too. The difference being there is a human arbiter who makes the call as opposed to it being automatically triggered.

Avatar of Reef_Drop
KMMCS88 wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

How does someone get to this ELO and not know that it's impossible to checkmate with only a king and bishop?


The confusion arises because of the difference between FIDE and USCF rules.

Under FIDE the position in the original post would be a win for black because mate is possible (no matter how unlikely).

Under USCF the result is a draw because mate cannot be forced.

I see what you mean but I'm honestly not even seeing how it's possible in that position.

White promotes one of their Pawns to a Knight or a Bishop and gets mated in the corner.

It could happen.

Show me grin.png 

Avatar of JackRoach

 

Avatar of JackRoach

Oops. Pretend the Knight is a rook.

Avatar of KMMCS88
JackRoach wrote:

Oops. Pretend the Knight is a rook.

*Bishop

Avatar of JackRoach

Yes. Pretend it's a Bishop.

SMH what is wrong with me lol

Avatar of Reef_Drop
I guess this is one way lol. White's last move here was Nb6.

This would never happen unless both sides were actively cooperating to try and achieve that result. I think the Chess.com system is fine. This would have been a drawn game under any other format IMO.

 

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
KMMCS88 wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

How does someone get to this ELO and not know that it's impossible to checkmate with only a king and bishop?


The confusion arises because of the difference between FIDE and USCF rules.

Under FIDE the position in the original post would be a win for black because mate is possible (no matter how unlikely).

Under USCF the result is a draw because mate cannot be forced.

I see what you mean but I'm honestly not even seeing how it's possible in that position.

White promotes one of their Pawns to a Knight or a Bishop and gets mated in the corner.

It could happen.

Or, with ONLY the pieces in the original position mate is possible for both sides, including black. First the original position, then a potential mate for black.

 

Avatar of Reef_Drop

That's virtually identical to the one I posted.


Avatar of lfPatriotGames
NowCheckM8 wrote:

That's virtually identical to the one I posted.


Similar. But using only the original pieces.  And no promotions. And a lot less moves. And with only the white king and pawn in the same position. 

Avatar of Reef_Drop
lfPatriotGames wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

That's virtually identical to the one I posted.


Similar. But using only the original pieces.  And no promotions. And a lot less moves. And with only the white king and pawn in the same position. 

I was just asking for someone to show me it was possible and found it was on my own right away anyways. Whether it could be done more quickly or without promotion isn't really relevant. Either way that position is never happening unless white is intentionally trying to be checkmated. Also noone was wondering if it was possible for white to checkmate. That's beyond obvious. The whole point was white ran out of time and whether this should have resulted in a draw or not.

100% I think it should have.

Avatar of Lagomorph
NowCheckM8 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

That's virtually identical to the one I posted.


Similar. But using only the original pieces.  And no promotions. And a lot less moves. And with only the white king and pawn in the same position. 

I was just asking for someone to show me it was possible and found it was on my own right away anyways. Whether it could be done more quickly or without promotion isn't really relevant. Either way that position is never happening unless white is intentionally trying to be checkmated. Also noone was wondering if it was possible for white to checkmate. That's beyond obvious. The whole point was white ran out of time and whether this should have resulted in a draw or not.

100% I think it should have.

Ok So now you know the difference between FIDE and USCF rules, it is time to move on.

Avatar of Reef_Drop
Lagomorph wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
NowCheckM8 wrote:

That's virtually identical to the one I posted.


Similar. But using only the original pieces.  And no promotions. And a lot less moves. And with only the white king and pawn in the same position. 

I was just asking for someone to show me it was possible and found it was on my own right away anyways. Whether it could be done more quickly or without promotion isn't really relevant. Either way that position is never happening unless white is intentionally trying to be checkmated. Also noone was wondering if it was possible for white to checkmate. That's beyond obvious. The whole point was white ran out of time and whether this should have resulted in a draw or not.

100% I think it should have.

Ok So now you know the difference between FIDE and USCF rules, it is time to move on.

Thanks for the enlightening distinction. I'd have appreciated it a good deal more, though, if it was relevant to the discussion. There are two major problems with your reasoning.

1.) OP was not confused about USCF vs. FIDE. He was unfamiliar with both. You came along to say it was the source of the confusion when in reality it has nothing to do with anything.

2.) Most importantly, this game would have gone to a draw in either format. The process just would have gone differently. The result would have been the same.

So now I will move on. In fact, I had done that two months ago until I noticed this snide remark a few minutes ago. My first instinct was to ignore but then I thought, "This guy is unselfishly offering his wealth of knowledge. I should return the favor and help educate him."

 

Avatar of myusername456456
NowCheckM8 wrote:

How does someone get to this ELO and not know that it's impossible to checkmate with only a king and bishop?

If someone has only a king and bishop, the absolute best outcome you are playing for is a draw.

I'm in a daily game right now where I have two connected passed pawns and a king and the other guy has a bishop and king. He's successfully blocked me to the point where I know I cannot ever promote unless he literally allows me to and he is refusing to accept a draw LOL. I'm the only one at this point with winning chances of any kind and he insists on playing it out.

It's going to be so hilarious if he screws this up and I manage to promote. What an idiot.

LOL, I've faced many people like that and sometimes, they do end up losing (not just in K+B vs K+ 2 pawns)!

Avatar of shubh81

You can mate with king and 2, pawns. Pawns can promote to a rook or even a queen and perhaps deliver a mate.