Deductive Puzzle #9

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Avatar of Georgy_K_Zhukov

Ok (I double and triple checked this one!).

On square a5 there is a Rook, of unknown color. With the knowledge that a)White has no promoted pieces in play and b) Black has just castled, which side does the castle belong to?

Avatar of dsarkar

black has captured a piece or e-pawn on a6 - as white has not promoted any pawn, it must be a bishop or a rook or e-pawn. But white has already a white-sq bishop, so it must be white's rook or e-pawn.

can it be e-pawn? for that white needs to capture 4 black's pieces (g-pawn not possible) - black has only 2 pieces and 1 pawn missing. There it was not e-pawn that was captured on a6 - so white's other rook must have been captured on a6.

Therefore it must be black's queen rook on a5.

Avatar of TheGrobe

Not much to add to this -- nice work dsarkar.

Curious that White's Rook got out to get captured -- another "pawn swap" situation maybe?  It may be in there as a red herring, when the solution's actually  much more straightforward.

Avatar of WanderingWinder

Something seems wrong... dsarkar's analysis is completely correct, but this seems too easy. I mean, there's some trickiness as to how the white rook escaped, but furthermore trickiness as to how the a2 bishop got there. Yet none of this, nor (and this is the biggest thing contributing to my sense of trepidation) the given information that black has just castled, is necessary nor even helpful to know.

Avatar of dsarkar

Wait...

"white has no promoted piece in play" - does not reject the possibility that white had promoted e-pawn through g or b hole, and it was captured. 

"black has just castled" - meaning if white's e-pawn promoted through g-hole - it had not given check to move the K or R.

I did not consider these...

Avatar of dsarkar

Black's two bishops are of the same color - meaning black MUST have promoted  g pawn thru e-pawn hole!

Avatar of brfc

So this puzzle is wrong again?

Avatar of dsarkar

g-pawn had made 3 captures to promote - only 3 white pieces/pawns missing - meaning white did not promote e-pawn.

Avatar of dsarkar

no, puzzle is not wrong - my original assumptions might be wrong!

Avatar of WanderingWinder
dsarkar wrote:

Wait...

"white has no promoted piece in play" - does not reject the possibility that white had promoted e-pawn through g or b hole, and it was captured. 

"black has just castled" - meaning if white's e-pawn promoted through g-hole - it had not given check to move the K or R.

I did not consider these...


Actually, white's e-pawn could have promoted on the c-file via dxc7. Similarly, black's g-pawn could have slipped through to g2 via fxg2, OR to h2 via gxh2 (while white's g-pawn was still on g2), which requires significantly fewer captures. It appears all is not solved yet...

Avatar of dsarkar

ok - black's 4(-1?) pieces/pawns are missing - white's 3(-1?) pieces/pawns are missing.

We know black must have promoted - we do not know yet whether white has promoted (and the piece got captured) or not...

Avatar of dsarkar

if black's g-pawn slipped thru gap, it made at least 1 capture to promote to h1

Avatar of dsarkar

promotion-capture must be a piece - a6 - capture must be a piece = at least 2 white pieces (or 1 piece+ 1 promoted pawn - not pawn per sewere captured by pawns

Avatar of dsarkar

white piece captured on a6 was either a rook or promoted piece - cannot be a black-sq bishop.

white piece captured by promoting g-pawn must be a black-sq bishop, rook, or promoted piece.

Avatar of dsarkar

so white pieces captured were (1) black-sq bishop (2) rook or promoted piece.

Avatar of dsarkar

if white promoted at all, e-pawn made at least 2 captures.(candidates are black-sq bishop, rook, queen).

Avatar of MBickley

So there is no more confusion, here's how to achieve the position from the starting position.

it must be blacks queenside rook.  Note that the e-file isn't usable, because if you promoted a bishop there, it would get stuck.

Avatar of dsarkar

The black Q-rook cannot have come out before a6-capture

(1) if a6-capture was a promoted white piece, then white e-pawn could not have captured black rook (rook could not come out before a6 capture) - meaning it must have captured Q and black-sq bishop

(2) if a6-capture was white rook, then g-pawn must have captured promoted piece. that means white promoted earlier.

 

I think a paradox exists regarding who promoted earlier...

Avatar of dsarkar

MBickley, I get your point. But how do you eliminate white's promotion of e-pawn? "white has no promoted piece in play" - does not eliminate white's promotion.

Avatar of dsarkar

white's Q-rook can get out through a4, Ra3,Rb3