Forums

Searching for retrograde puzzle

Sort:
wbport
I don't remember the position of the knights or Black's bishops or queen, but I recall Black did not have a g-pawn and White did not have any bishops
. White's king had only moved once and had never been in check. The question was "Which rooks have never moved?". I think the problem was by Raymond Smullian, but I can't remember where I saw it.  Any suggestions?
TIA

supware

How did that pawn get to b3 if black is only missing a g pawn?

Arisktotle

Raymond Smullyan wrote 2 popular chess books: The Chess Mysteries of Sherlock Holmes and The Chess Mysteries of the Arabian Knights. I used to own both but lost them. Your position appears to be correct and is most likely in one of those two books.

The question is dubious as it is always possible to move all 4 rooks right from the start. Better to ask for the rooks which need not necessarily have played in the preceding game!

Arisktotle

Btw, interesting chess bio. Retrograde chess requires full algebraic notation when playing backward from a diagram though it may be replaced by an independent retrograde notation system which follows the process steps of retracting moves. Several chess problemists (me amongst them) designed systems for it but they never broke the water surface into recognition.

wbport
Arisktotle wrote:

Btw, interesting chess bio. Retrograde chess requires full algebraic notation when playing backward from a diagram though it may be replaced by an independent retrograde notation system which follows the process steps of retracting moves. Several chess problemists (me amongst them) designed systems for it but they never broke the water surface into recognition.

Thank you for looking at my bio--as far as I know I was first to use AN and DN in the US in a letter to Chess Life (Apr. 1968). I will lose that website in a few days.

Good luck as a problemist. I can see long algebraic notation would be useful. Back in the late 60's I saw some fascinating material by Andrew M Lockett, but not in book form. He had a "preview mate" where White's pieces return to their initial position (start of the puzzle) to give mate.

Show a solution to that puzzle now or wait a few days?

 

wbport
supware wrote:

How did that pawn get to b3 if black is only missing a g pawn?

That is the solution to the puzzle.

tygxc

@2
Here is a way for the pawn to reach b3, and no rooks moved, the king never in check, but the king moved several times.



wbport
tygxc wrote:


Here is a way for the pawn to reach b3, and no rooks moved, the king never in check, but the king moved several times.


White's king has never been in check so giving away a new knight doesn't work.

 

tygxc

@8
Here is another way: no rook moves, no king check, 1 king move

I do not understand the question of rook moves: all 4 rooks may have made some inconsequential moves and then returned.

Arisktotle
tygxc wrote:

@8
Here is another way: no rook moves, no king check, 1 king move

I do not understand the question of rook moves: all 4 rooks may have made some inconsequential moves and then returned.

Congrats, you most likely found a cook! There are many errors in Smullyan's puzzles and this looks like one of them!

Arisktotle

Btw, with the extra condition that the wQ played once, only the author's solution remains!

supware

@7 very interesting! This sort of puzzle is totally now to me

Arisktotle
supware wrote:

@7 very interesting! This sort of puzzle is totally now to me

Living in the totally now is a good thing wink. Puzzles based on an analysis of the past of a diagram are named retrograde puzzles. It's a very popular puzzle type among chess puzzle specialists.

Rocky64

Here's the Smullyan problem (no.50) from his Arabian Knights book.

BigDoggProblem
Rocky64 wrote:

Here's the Smullyan problem (no.50) from his Arabian Knights book.

 

Original bRh8 sac'ed on b3 or b4. bPg7 captured both white B's and promoted on e1. It exited via a1; wRa1 had to move out of the way.

The two Rooks that haven't moved are h1 and a8.

tygxc

@16

 

Arisktotle

Rocky64 cleared the air! Relevant differences to the OP challenge are that there is a pawn on d3, there is no check restriction on the wK and the bK never moved! Without the latter condition Ra8 could be the one captured on b3/b4.

wbport

Computer has been in the shop for over a week, just got it back. I finally found the puzzle in the back of the Smyllyan (sp) book.  Thanks to Rocky64 for printing it.

In this one, where is the White King?

 

Arisktotle

The latest puzzle is Smullyan's most famous creation and an attractive introduction to retrograde chess for newbies. Like most basic puzzles it is often reposted on this forum.