Anti-Dutch 2 Bg5"

I'm a fan of the simple 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.Nbd2 Be7 5.Bxf6 Bxf6 6.e4

Confused a little by your "...here on ICC" comment.

In what line? 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6

What do you consider the critical line?

I had a brief "affair" with the Dutch and didnt do badly with it in tournament play. However, during this time I was also visiting an IM friend of mine and we would play blitz non-stop for 3 to 5 hours every week. He was a 1 d4 player and he was mangling my Dutch so bad in blitz that I completely gave it up ! Its true that the anti-Dutch systems are a real pain and a Dutch player must know them well if he wants to stick with the Dutch. Ozzie, I like your "system" and may try it myself soon ! 

It was recommended by a GM to me as an easy way to play against the Dutch, almost dismissively.

A friend of mine on here, Burnelr, and I are exploring the 2...h6 lines for the first time.  Here is one of the main lines we are looking into at the moment:

Like many Sicilian lines, these lines should be tried before they are buyed. 

I guess I am in agreeance that 2. Bg5 is a great line for White to play against 1. d4, on one condition - he must know his stuff.  It put Black, of all systems (save maybe the Staunton) on his toes immediately, and sets the tone for a different opening scheme.  There are plenty of other options we didn't discuss, such as Steinitz' 2...c6!? - he was a crazy man :-)

One thing not mentioned is that most dutch players use the move order 1...e6. Avoiding the Bg5 line and inviting a french( similar to the Caro-kann, Slav synergy) that many players use as an opening repertoire

Couple of points.

1. After 1.d4 e6, I usually play 2.Nf3 specifically so that black doesn't "trick" me into a Dutch after 2.c4, because in my setup it's vital that black does not have the ...Bb4 pin available. Oh, and I do not play 1.e4 so I have no desire whatsoever of transposing into a French.

2. After 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.Nbd2 Be7 5.Bxf6 Bxf6 6.e4, I've always thought that ...fxe4 is best on principle. After 6...d5 it seems to me like that f-pawn really doesn't want to be there. Remember Yusupov's famous quote about the Dutch - he said the problem with the Dutch is that black very often in the middlegame finds that his best available move is f5-f7.

You guys....you forgot to mention the Dutch laid back attitudes and excellent coffeeshops.  Sheesh.

http://www.chess.com/games/view.html?id=1371811#

This game is in reference to Bc4 in one of the lines I posted.  I guess that Simon missed the sacrifices for the tempoes, or else he misevaluated it.  

Ozzie, I got that idea (...d5) from Bent Larsen.  Your idea is analagous to a position in Bird's Opening...

Pet peeve. I think the word you're looking for in the first line is "agreement" not "agreeance"; unless you're speaking antiquated pre-victorian english. 

Estragon, Simon Williams is around 2400 rated, and he plays the Dutch a lot.  Granted, he is a very tactical player, but his opinion is that e4 is the test of the system.  I think anything else, like e3, really gives Black more of what he is looking for - a more comfortable kingside development.  I would like to find my own opinion here eventually - that is why I am testing this setup for myself.  

Agreed on 2. e4.

Ok, well your citations have me convinced that ...d5 is acceptable for black. One response to the comment "which just lets the knight get to a strong square".

Um couldn't the same thing be said about the entire Open Sicilian?

Always a problem with books on a certain opening, especially from the black perspective, is that the author is looking for ways to make the opening viable, even better, for black. On the face of it, it's a logical fallacy. It's not like there's all these openings which are at least equal and sometimes better for black which the top GMs are just not playing, well, I don't know why they're not playing them. Maybe they haven't read the book?

In these enlightened ages, one has to learn an opening alongside a strong database to keep the authors honest.

Ozzie, I agree with what you have written - there are many authors who try to force lines.  Even some of the lines in Taylor's Bird's Opening book I have to take a grain of salt with...even lines in many different books.  But the ...d5 approach is a solid answer to White's response against Black.  I am not saying it is to every player's taste, but it works for me - it gives Black a chunk of space in the center, with room for maneuvering.  

I do think a Dutch player must have a good answer to 2. e4, 2. Bg5 and 2. g4.  Anything else gives him time to develop normally.  

Anthony, I just watched the video from Simon Williams you posted in #21.  Amazing - that is the game I have been referencing this whole time!  :-)  Like playing against From's Gambit, I think if Black knows his stuff, he can walk out of this variation (4. e4) with a playable position.  I believe 4. e3 is playable, but encourages Black to work on his pawn-roller he has already begun.  I have read two players (both stronger than me) question 4. e4, but my question is - what type of pressure does e3 put on Black?  Sure, it stifles ...f5-f4, but that isn't the end of the world.  ...f5 as a move does more than just threaten to crack the kingside.  It fights for e4.  And later, if Black can castle queenside (there is a nice win for Black in the database after 4. e3), he can push ...g5-g4, and even gambit a pawn or two to crack the kingside if necessary.  

Maybe we could propose a Hopton Attack tourney? 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5...

http://www.chess.com/games/view.html?id=1360086#

Here is an example of a game with 4. e3.  I feel that many of the moves are typical of the opening - early h4 met with ...g5, Black seeking for ...e5.  Black had a space advantage, White had piece development.  Interesting positions for sure...

Hi,

Not long ago I found lots of problems when facing the Dutch, and then a colleague told me about this tricky anti-dutch 2.Bg5. Well I have to say it really takes Black out of his normal plan, and even though we cannot say this gives White a clear edge, certainly it confuses Black, and the game won't follow the normal way Black would desire.

I just played it OTB in the Team League yesterday. I won after 19 moves, the Black king being trapped in the center of the board without castleing. After the game, we exchanged a couple of ideas, and my rival said he had no idea what to play after 2.Bg5. In fact he employed 40 minutes in the first 5-6 moves.

Bg5 is in my humble oppinion a very good way to meet the Dutch, and put pressure on the game from the very beginning.

Regards.

Yes, if Black is not prepared, he will get trounced quickly.  That is why we are reviewing this idea.  If I want to continue to play 1...f5 (which I do), I need to have a good answer.  I played 2. Bg5 against my computer yesterday, and it answered with 2...d5, opting for a type of Stonewall.  

http://www.chess.com/games/view.html?id=482150#

Here is a dogfight of a game with the Bg5 idea (reached via a Staunton Gambit) with ...c6 and ...d5 in the mix.