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Anti-Dutch 2 Bg5"


  • 3 years ago · Quote · #1

    karangtarunasemarang

    Players wishing to play the Dutch Defense must certainly pay as much attention to Anti-Dutch systems as they do to the main line, as it is these very lines that can more frequently arise at club level.  And one of the most popular is the tricky 1 d4 f5 2 Bg5, a line that’s certainly a blood brother of the Trompowsky Attack. Black has to be extremely careful when facing 2 Bg5, because many up against this line have fallen victim to a miniature with White winning with a crushing attack in under 25 moves. This line is also a favorite in online play, and especially here on ICC!  And in a new series of Ronen’s Opening Survey, GM Ronen Har-Zvi explores the cut and thrust of the blood-thirsty Anti-Dutch with 2 Bg5.

     

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #4

    Estragon

    ozzie_c_cobblepot wrote:

    In what line? 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6

    What do you consider the critical line?


    Probably after the direct ...h6 3 Bh4 is more critical, but 3 Bf4 is eminently playable, and in the case of the "safe" 2 ...g6  3 Nc3 Bg7  4 h4!? is very disruptive.

    My personal feeling is that 2 Bg5 is every bit as good a try for advantage for White as 2 c4 or 2 g3.  And it can have a psychological effect as well, since the resulting positions usually don't resemble normal Black set-ups in the Dutch main lines, so Black may be out of his comfort zone.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #5

    rich

    I used to play the Hopton Attack against the Dutch defense a lot, the main reason being is because I was so used to playing the Levitsky and the Trompowsky attack, so it seemed most logical to play the Hopton Attack against the Dutch. I did play the Raphael variation a couple of times. But now I prefer the Krejcik Gambit, black can get into a tricky position if he doesn't know it, and they generally don't. Wink

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #6

    MrBlunderful

    ozzie_c_cobblepot wrote:

    I'm a fan of the simple 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.Nbd2 Be7 5.Bxf6 Bxf6 6.e4

    Confused a little by your "...here on ICC" comment.


     Don't be confused.

    He just cut and pasted the whole awkward message straight out of an ICC newsletter.

    http://www.chessclub.com/mailing/2011/02c/news.html

    Weird.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #9

    MrBlunderful

    Reb wrote:

    I had a brief "affair" with the Dutch and didnt do badly with it in tournament play. However, during this time I was also visiting an IM friend of mine and we would play blitz non-stop for 3 to 5 hours every week. He was a 1 d4 player and he was mangling my Dutch so bad in blitz that I completely gave it up ! Its true that the anti-Dutch systems are a real pain and a Dutch player must know them well if he wants to stick with the Dutch. Ozzie, I like your "system" and may try it myself soon !


     I think a lot of people fall out of love with the Dutch for the same reason.

    Just like the Sicilian, if you're going to play the Dutch, you're going to face anti-systems almost as (if not more) often than you play anything resembling a mainline.

    UNlike the Sicilian, seemingly all the anti-Dutch lines are actually really difficult for black to face.

    I'd like to believe in simple refutations to the Staunton gambit, or early Nh3...but instead find myself battling uphill against them.

    I've found some level of happiness approaching it through a  1...e6 move order.  Of course, my days of Leningrading are over.  But I'm finding smoother sailing these days.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #10

    MrBlunderful

    ozzie_c_cobblepot wrote:

    It was recommended by a GM to me as an easy way to play against the Dutch, almost dismissively.


     I've seen Simon Williams play that...I guess you'd call it "Torre" line against the Dutch.  And when the Classical Dutch's biggest advocate plays a particular anti- as white, you've got to stand up and take notice.

    Curious how you'd handle 4...d5 instead of ...Be7?  My inclination would be to prefer stonewall waters against that move order, since with the bishop developed to g5, d6 looks safe and active for black's pointy-headed soldier.

    But admittedly, I haven't thought this through yet.  Might post some thoughts later, but interested in your take.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #11

    BirdBrain

    A friend of mine on here, Burnelr, and I are exploring the 2...h6 lines for the first time.  Here is one of the main lines we are looking into at the moment:

    Like many Sicilian lines, these lines should be tried before they are buyed. 

    Ozzie Cobblepot's line is seen pretty frequently against the Dutch, here is probably what I would play against it...
  • 3 years ago · Quote · #12

    BirdBrain

    I guess I am in agreeance that 2. Bg5 is a great line for White to play against 1. d4, on one condition - he must know his stuff.  It put Black, of all systems (save maybe the Staunton) on his toes immediately, and sets the tone for a different opening scheme.  There are plenty of other options we didn't discuss, such as Steinitz' 2...c6!? - he was a crazy man :-)

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #13

    friki

    One thing not mentioned is that most dutch players use the move order 1...e6. Avoiding the Bg5 line and inviting a french( similar to the Caro-kann, Slav synergy) that many players use as an opening repertoire

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #14

    MrBlunderful

    I don't know about "most."  I think it's relevant to look into Bg5 lines as a d4 player rather than rely on seeing mostly an ...e6 move order.

    I think most Dutchies are angling for a Leningrad these days.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #16

    Here_Is_Plenty

    You guys....you forgot to mention the Dutch laid back attitudes and excellent coffeeshops.  Sheesh.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #17

    AnthonyCG

    A cool anti-dutch vid:

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #18

    BirdBrain

    http://www.chess.com/games/view.html?id=1371811#

    This game is in reference to Bc4 in one of the lines I posted.  I guess that Simon missed the sacrifices for the tempoes, or else he misevaluated it.  

    Ozzie, I got that idea (...d5) from Bent Larsen.  Your idea is analagous to a position in Bird's Opening...

    The idea is that if Black pushes to e4, then Be2 and White can begin to develop on the queenside, kind of like a reversed French, with f4 in the mix.  If exd or exf, exd or exf back and White still has a decent grip on the center, with two bishops. 
  • 3 years ago · Quote · #19

    polydiatonic

    BirdBrain wrote:

    I guess I am in agreeance that 2. Bg5 is a great line for White to play against 1. d4, on one condition - he must know his stuff.  It put Black, of all systems (save maybe the Staunton) on his toes immediately, and sets the tone for a different opening scheme.  There are plenty of other options we didn't discuss, such as Steinitz' 2...c6!? - he was a crazy man :-)


    Pet peeve. I think the word you're looking for in the first line is "agreement" not "agreeance"; unless you're speaking antiquated pre-victorian english. 

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #20

    Estragon

    BirdBrain wrote:

    A friend of mine on here, Burnelr, and I are exploring the 2...h6 lines for the first time.  Here is one of the main lines we are looking into at the moment:

     


    In your first example @ #13, White's 4 e4 is just weak.  I am not familiar with Simon Williams, but the move is a pretty crass attempt to win by cheap shot.  White will want to play e3 instead, to forestall ...f5-f4 later, before or after Bh4-g3.

    Sure, 4 e4 "tests" whether Black can figure out the ...Rh8-h7-f7 manuever, but if he does, White isn't particularly well placed to make Black pay for loosening his Kingside so.


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