Help with Mistake in Philidor Defense

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4? 4.dxe5 dxe5?? 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Nxe5, and White wins a pawn.

I see this mistake now and then from Black. Would you trade queens that early in a game for one pawn? Chess engines say to go for it, but how easy would it be to convert this 4 vs. 3 kingside pawn majority, on to a pawn promotion?

What would be your strategy, or would you not trade queens that early in the game?

Definitely worth it, a pawn and removing castling rights is worth it.  

Of course it's worth it.  It's a won endgame at best and a draw even if you slip up and blunder a pawn.

If you are that scared of the queens coming off you really need to work on your endgame.

If you are a pawn up and your opponent have NO counterplay it should be Winning.

You have  queenless middlegame with lots of play (for white !) left.

It's not only about the coronation of the extra pawn it's about the spatial bonus that pawn gives as well as the black king in the middle.

As white you can continously use the threat of exchanging to force black pieces into a cramped game or trade off towards a real endgame.

The fear of getting queen's off is something that most of us will recognise and perhaps it represents an impatience to end the game or trying to play to a predefined script to mate black with a kingside attack. The position determines what are the best moves not our preferences.

Good endgame play is more satisfying than a middlegame attack that often crashes through because of poor play from our opponent.

As you pointed out yourself the only big blunder by black here is playing 3... Bg4 as pointed out by Morphy in the opera game. In pretty much every other line of the philidor changing queens gives white nothing but an equal endgame. You won't see 4.dxe5 much played as it just releases the pressure and gives black an easy game to play.

Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

Musikamole wrote:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4? 4.dxe5 dxe5?? 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Nxe5, and White wins a pawn.

I see this mistake now and then from Black. Would you trade queens that early in a game for one pawn? Chess engines say to go for it, but how easy would it be to convert this 4 vs. 3 kingside pawn majority, on to a pawn promotion?

What would be your strategy, or would you not trade queens that early in the game?

You have  queenless middlegame with lots of play (for white !) left.

It's not only about the coronation of the extra pawn it's about the spatial bonus that pawn gives as well as the black king in the middle.

As white you can continously use the threat of exchanging to force black pieces into a cramped game or trade off towards a real endgame.

The fear of getting queen's off is something that most of us will recognise and perhaps it represents an impatience to end the game or trying to play to a predefined script to mate black with a kingside attack. The position determines what are the best moves not our preferences.

Good endgame play is more satisfying than a middlegame attack that often crashes through because of poor play from our opponent.

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Thanks for the post.

Can someone post the Opera game with Paul Morphy. I would like to see it. Thanks.

clunney, thanks for the Morphy game!

I think black is probably objectively lost after Bg4.

My belief too. But after 4...dxe5, it's no longer a belief for me.

Thanks for this thread Musikamole. I used Morphy's opera game as part of my lesson of the week this week. I was pleasantly surprised that I was able to replay it from memory yesterday afternoon after less than ten minutes review yesterday morning.

I did not know Lasker's rule of not pinning your opponent's king knight before he has castled. Is there a rationale for this that you can articulate? Does it apply to most openings or only the Philidor?

Well, a couple of things I can think of. If your opponent can castle on the oppositite side:

1. Your threat to ruin his pawn structure isn't too important, and infact may give him counterplay along the g file.

2. h6 followed by g5 gives tempo on the bishop to support a pawn storm against your king. If the opponent has castled, then he wouldn't want to open his king in this way. If he can castle the other side, it may be the start of a dangerous attack.

The rule is valid for most open games. The idea is that there is always a possibility of h3 - g4 (h6 - g5) kicking the bishop out and "winning tempi" to push the pawns, but when you have castled there is your king there which becomes a target and impedes the maneuvering of the rook on the h and g files. There is a famous game where Black won sacrificing tons of stuff due to this premature pin, though I don't remember which one.

Probably a Tarrasch game, I can imagine his notations, that 'after this premature pin, white is losing'.

Lasker himself offers this rule after some examples of quick checkmates. First this example of Legall's Mate:

Then, a quick Black win with similar ideas.

The ability of the pawns to get tempi on the bishop are important, but so are discovered attacks against the bishop when the knight moves. I think of this game, which Lasker did not show.

Morphy's opera game (and the other games in this thread) offer another theme.

thank you Ziryab, Scottrf, and Irontiger. Much appreciated. Its amazing how much more makes sense when someone helps it make sense.  

Generally, when people do play Bg4, it's with intent to gambit a pawn for development, e.g., 

Doesn't mean it's any good, but giving up the pawn for development is certainly better than Bxf3?, or dxe5?.  Of course, the Hanham variation of the Philidor (or even the counter gambit!) are MUCH better than Bg4...