Is the Main line of the Fried Liver wrong?

For centuries it has been believed that the main line of the Fried Liver, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 was correct.

Jon Edwards in Chess Life suggested that 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Kd6 11.Ne4+ favors White; I agree. At a fast time limit Houdini tried 10...Qf6, but after 11.Qe2 White gets a big plus.

With 10...Kd7 11.a3 Nxc3 12.axb4 Nd5 13.Bxd5 cxd5 14.Ra5! & White is better.

The key improvement for Black which was played in no games I have found in my Big data base from 2013 is---6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nce7! 9.d4 c6 10.Bg5 Qe8! The Pro's improvement over the book line, 10...h6.

I cannot find any advantage for White after 10...Qe8.

Dan Heisman in Chess Life pretty much refuted the Lolli as a winning attempt. Houdini 3 Pro continues 6...Nxd4 7.c3 b5! 8.Bd3 h6 9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4! 11.cxd4 exd3 12.O-O with about an equal position.

Here is a game against Houdini 3 Pro played at tournament level (120'40) played out to the point that White has a pleasant plus:

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Kd7 12.dxe5 Qf5 13.Ne4 Kc7 14.a3 Na6 15.Bxa6 bxa6 16.c4 Nb6 17.f4 Kb7 18.c5 Nd5 19.Nd6+ Bxd6 20.cxd6 & White has a viable five to two pawn majority on the Kingside and weak pawns to play against on the Queenside---White is better.

Please don't talk about things you have no clue about.

6...Nxd4 is indeed the only really good move, when after 7.c3 b5 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.f3, white will win a piece for two pawns and a compact Black center. Initially engines say about equal, but if you do some serious analysis (can you? I guess not...) it becomes clear that white has the advantage.

Your Fried Liver line is silly, too. After 8...Ncb4! 9.0-0 c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Black's best is 11...Ke7 (letting the LSB to develop freely) and this position has been exhaustively analysed- white has no advantage after either 12.Ne4, or 12.de5.

You could use your Houdini to analyse these positions, but I'm afraid this task is simply too heavy for your skills.

Both Heisman and GM Larry Kaufman thought that Black was equal after 6.d4 Nxd4 but both men missed a key interpolation for White after 7.c3 b5 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.f3! & not Heisman's suggestion of 9.cxd4 when Black is fine after 9...Qxg2.

Houdini 3 Pro agrees that White is slightly better after 9.f3----extend the analysis a few moves and the White advantage grows.

It is not clear to me that Black is okay in the Fried Liver. Preliminary analysis of the key variation 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Ke7 12.Ne4 and Houdini 3 Pro indicates White is better---I'll follow with more detailed analysis. In the mean time would you provide some of the "exhaustively analyzed" variations indicating Black has equality?

Here is some additional analysis in the critical 8...Ncb4 variation:

9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Ke7 12.Ne4 Qg6 13.c3 Bf5 14.f3 Na6 15.dxe5 Ke8! (Kf7? 16.Ng5+ Kg8 17.g4 Bd7 18.f4 +/-) 16.Bxd5! cxd5 17.Nd6+ Kd8 18.Bg5+! Kc7 19.Qd2 Kb8 (Depth =27) 20.Rac1 with a slight plus (according to the Pro) 

One of the more promising continuations in the Fried Liver is: 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.Bb3! Until I tried this recently against Houdini 3 Pro White could only "get" three pawns for the piece in the endgame, but the pawns never Queen. In this variation White wins the three pawns but stays in a middlegame.

There are no high level tests of 9.Bb3 in either the Big Data Bases 2012 or 2013.

9...c6 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Kd7!? (exd4? 13.Bf4 +/-; Be7 was regarded as the main line in another post, but I have found key attacking resources for White in this line. This will be in another post.) 13.dxe5 Kc7 14.Bxd5 Bg4 15.Qb3 Nc5 16.Qc4 b5 17.Qa2 Qd7 18.O-O Rd8 19.c4 with a complicated position slightly favorable to White (Houdini at Depth = 27.

(No luck with game editor)

This is just more of the same garbage from the "Can Houdini 3 be beaten" thread when he was forcing Houdini to play so-called "inferior" lines in the Two Knights Defense.  We stopped feeding the troll on that one so he opened a new thread.  Please, please, PLEASE just let this one die unnoticed.

Why don't you just go somewhere else if you don't like the thread?

I like 9. 0-0 too....How about if we call this one the Fried Liver w/ 0ni0ns ?

Oh, sorry....everyone continue please.... ?

The trouble with 9.O-O is that White gets three pawns for the piece, but Black can walk his King into safety, the attack fizzles and the extra piece is worth at least three pawns.

I think that 5. ... Nxd5 by black is wrong (much better is 5. ... Na5). So white should never have the chance to play this variation. Even if 5. ... Nxd5 is played the opening book I trust recommends 6. d4 as a much better move for white than Nxf7. So the main line indicated in the opening comment is wrong from both black's and white's perspective. This line should simply never occur.

Please stop feeding the troll

Yes, you've uncovered a complete refutation with 20 minutes of thought in your basement that thousands of people over 2 centuries of consideration didn't see, I urge you to publish it anywhere other than chess.com!!!!

lol

In Post 6 IM Phren after "exhaustive analysis" claims that this line is equal. Does White have realistic attacking resources that cannot be met? No analysis is provided by IM Phren after 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Ke7 except to say that White has no advantage after either 12.Ne4 or 12.dxe5.

One way to look at this line is that Black has made a series of useful moves; Qe2 avoids the exchange of Queens, but gains no time so Black has picked up a tempo. If White can drive the Queen Knight to a6, then White regains the tempo so 11...Ke7 12.Ne4 Qg6 (Is there anything better?) 13.dxe5 Bf5 (ditto; isn't this the point behind Ke7?) 14.f3 (Now it seems that the King has to move for Black to complete his development; there are four squares for the Black King a) 14...Ke8? 15.Kh1 +/-; b) 14...Kd8 15.a3 Na6 16.Bxa6 bxa6 17.Qxa6 +/=; c) Kd7 15.a3 Na6 16.Bxa6 bxa6 17.Qxa6 +/= d) 14...Kf7 15.a3 Na6 16.Ng5+ Kg8 17.g4 Bc8 18.f4 +/=

What seems to be evident is that the maneuver Ke7/Qg6/Bf5 may not equalize. Can anyone find an equalizing resource for Black? 

Theory should only consider those lines which represent best play by both sides. To analyze a line which involves less than best play by at least one side and then then ask whether this side has equalizing chances is pointless.

If IM Phren is right that Black has to free the Queen Bishop, it has no better square than f5. If Black retreats his Queen after Ne4 is there any better square than g6?

I gave four King moves by Black after Ke7 none of which appears to equalize; at least one has to be "best" play unless Black can delay a King move. Sooner or later Black must move his King two more times giving White a pleasant initiative.

In the starting position let's take away the pawn on a7 from black. Then ask what black can do to remedy this situation and equalize (very little it seems). This is an interesting thought experiment but has nothing to do with real games since in real games the pawn on a7 is never taken away from black in the starting position.

Finding improvements for black in the Fried Liver line is a similar thought experiment. The best black can do to equalize the Fried Liver is to avoid the Fried Liver.