Philidor defence?

Hi,

I'm looking for some good defence for black, which would avoid ruy lopez, scotch,... etc. so I found philidor defence and started learning it. But I'm little confused about this opening, because of this: 1)Hanham var.

2)Philidor Counter-Gambit

This doens't look good for black. Or am I wrong?
3)Exchange var...

Thank you, so is better go to Philidor into another move order like: 

and Bxf7+ can be probably avoid by h6, but why it usually not played by GM? What is bad for white on Bxf7+?

The group has great articles, especially "Philidor vs d4" idea got me.

btw: Is there any another trap except Legal's and the Bxf7+ problem?

get_lost: thanks nice trap

I go through some material about Philidor defence and found some another lines which doesn't look so good for black:

 The position in the diagram that went with this had a Q exchange and Black just took Kxd8. There is then the question in the box under the diagram asking "is this position good for Black?" Are you kidding? White just plays Nxe5 and Black can't recapture because of the threat of Nxf7+ forking K/R. This is disastrous...as is the Philidor's in general. There is nothing wrong with playing the Black side of the Lopez or Scotch. At least then you are in the game and fighting for the initiative instead of hiding behind a flimsy pawn wall with no development and poor space.

The philidor is a bit overly defensive, though sometimes I like to have a nice cozy position as black, with all my pieces touching each other on the second and first ranks!

White both has many tactical tries and positional ideas, simply using the space, and I think black is making his life much more difficult than it needs to be by allowing white to take the center and blocking in his pieces (...d6). He has to be careful sometimes just to get his solid setup (in the hanham for example black has to take some precautions against bishop sacs and dxe5 followed by Ng5, stuff like this). I think you'd be better off just playing ...Nc6(or of course the petroff, ...Nf6 if you want solid), even if you're concerned about theory, because ironically it's the philidor where you have to study before hand to make sure you don't fall into a trap. I would instead look for a ...Nc6 line with less theory if that's what I was worried about. But... it's playable.

Thanks for your replies. I'm still not decided if its good or not, because of very strong players play it and play it with success. At least I learn how to play againts it . So what opening do you recommend to me?

Something may be more active and attacking. The idea of avoid ruy lopez, scotch and others is just get some familiar position (no surprises, something what I can force to play in every game for black and get familiar with it and go through some theory).

My own experience playing the Philidor's is a tale of woe and a warning to those who think they'll just play 1...e5 and then duck out of opening complications. Many years ago, I got this pamphlet by Bent Larsen called "Why Not the Philidor's?" I studied it intensely and then in the next tournament I played in, I sprung it on a 2300 player in round 1. He choked the life out of my position, not by trying to refute the setup head on, but by shutting down my efforts to break against the center and giving my pieces no good squares. I had a lifeless position that finally gave up the ghost around move 30 or so. Afterwards, he went over the game with me and showed that while you can play the Philidor's, you probably should not. Cramped and lifeless are the key words. What good is a chess game where you don't get to at least throw a punch at your opponent once in a while?

And I know that someone will post the standard objection: "well, GM So-and-so played it and won a game..." but I am not a GM, nor will the circumstances of that game play out every time you play it. I have ever since been grateful to Chris Chase, who showed me that this opening is a lame and tedious effort to evade theory and to learn as little about chess as is possible and yet keep playing it.

Did someone say Philidor?

It looks like most everything from the original post was covered, I'll just add a few of my opinions, being a die-hard Philidor player of late.

1) Hanham with 6. Bxf7 - Taking the R at the end of this line is tough to play due to the Qg6->Qg2 idea, there are a few lines that Black can almost force upon White to get into an endgame with a slight initiative..or Black can keep pieces on the board and play the unclear position.   I play a master at our local club and he plays this, but does not recapture Nxa8, but 0-0 instead.  after Rb8 the position seems unclear to me, but Black has lots of play, White needs to extricate the Knight, Black needs to fix his Kingside.

2) Philidor counter gambit - I played this a few times and found most White players don't know the best lines against it, so it could be a good practical weapon, until someone studies it against you and blows you off the board with best play :P though as mentioned, Jim West does fine with this.

3) Exchange - this is the usual follow up from 1...e5 to avoid bad setups.  The line with ..g6 is Larsen's line, and it is labelled as experiencing 'tough times' according to Bauer.  The alternative Be7 is the Antoshin and is considered more solid.

if you want to avoid the ruy and scotch as black, then play the scandinavian (1. e4 d5).

personally, i play the scotch a lot, and i love it when i come up against the philidor. but throwing out the scandinavian takes all the wind out of the scotch player's sails.

The defense is considered solid but I don't believe it. e4 e5 Nf3 d6 d4 Bg4 is horrible for black. Including the lines that you posted, the phillidor is actually a very sharp line.

It seems to me like the Philidor needs a better defensive move than 3...Nf6, as this move doesn't really defend against either dxe5 or the future Bc4.

3...Nc6 is logical, but after 4. d5 Ne7, Black is still cramped and unable to effectively target the e4 pawn.

As I've said I don't think the philidor is ideal, but you can't judge an opening only based on your own, limited, experience. Black will not get a completely lifeless, hopeless position if he plays right, though he is likely to come out worse and with a defensive position. It's not particularly easy to handle the black side of this, but some players can play that stuff very well.

Thing is you should not have to be a GM to play an opening that does not offer a significant advantage. I mean, truly what does the Philidor offer? A strong center? No. A lead in development? No. All it gives you is a hard time. And that is the bottom line. Use the pirc, french, or car kann to get an advantage.

I think the Philidor is okay, but only if you go through the d6, Nf6, and e5 move order.  White has ways to get an advantage in each of the main lines of the 1...e5, 2...d6 Philidor.

Per Reuben Fine, it gives you a very "solid" position. However, considering that all those classic games where Black got mated very quickly (Morphy's opera house game, Legal's Mate, etc.) were in openings similar to Philidor's Defense, I'd say it's a somewhat risky defense that could go sour very quickly if Black doesn't play it correctly--the same as others noted above.

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(p. 35)
      Philidor's Defence:
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6

This is the strong point defence
reduced to its essentials. It has the
outstanding merit of that type of
game--solidity--and it has its
outstanding demerit--lack of
mobility.
   Black must be on his guard
against a number of traps, all
based on the weakness of f7 and
his cramped king position. On the
normal course 3 d4 Bg4? e.g.,
leads to the loss of a pawn after 4
dxe5 Bxf3 5 Qxf3 dxe5 6 Bc4
Nf6 7 Qb3 etc. Likewise on 3 d4
Nd7 4 Bc4 Be7 5 dxe5 dxe5 6
Qd5 is immediately disastrous.
   But the defender can avoid all
the traps and secure a tenable
though passive position with 3 d4
Nd7 4 Bc4 c6 5 Nc3 Be7 6
O-O Ngf6 7 a4 O-O 8 Qe2 h6 9
Bb3 Qc7 10 h3 Kh7 11 Be3
g6 12 Rad1.
   The two prophylactic moves 7
a4 and 10 h3 have to be stressed
because they illustrate the all-
important principle that by
depriving the enemy of counter-
play, a cramped but sound pos-
ition such as Black's here has all
the life taken out of it and is
reduced to pure passivity.
   Black may follow one of two
lines to get some counterplay: after
due preparation ... exd4 and
pressure on the White e-pawn, or
manoeuvre his N to f4. White can
proceed by opening some lines
(especially from f4) and securing
an attack. All told, such positions
offer the defender little promise
against a person equipped with
modern technique.
   One of the chief merits of the
defence is that it is rather difficult
for White to form a good plan
right after the opening in view of
Black's lack of obvious weak-
nesses. One worthwhile idea is the
fianchetto of the QB, in order
to hammer away at the d-pawn.
Another, as mentioned, is playing
f4 early.
   The abandonment of the centre
with 3 ... exd4 is sometimes seen,
but nevertheless bad, since Black
gets nothing in return. White can
recapture with either N or Q
and secures an ideal development.
   Finally, it should be noted that
(p. 36)
if White does not harass the Black
centre with 3 d4, the second player
can secure good counter-chances
with the natural 3 ... f5. On 3 d4,
however, 3 ... f5? is shown to be
premature by 4 Nc3! Nf6 5 dxe5
Nxe4 6 Nxe4 fxe4 7 Ng5 d5 8
e6 Bc5 9 Nxe4!

Fine, Reuben. 1989. The Ideas Behind the Chess Openings, Algebraic Edition. New York: Random House, Inc.

Just play the alekhine.Very fun and intersting.

I switched from Alehkine's Defense to the Philidor as my main defense to 1. e4 about 5 years ago, never looked back!

"I'm looking for some good defence for black, which would avoid ruy lopez, scotch,... etc. so I found philidor defence and started learning it."

If you don't want to play the Ruy Lopez or Scotch, then why play 1. ... e5 at all? Either go with the Petroff, or switch to a different first move - French, Caro Kann, Sicilian, Alekhine, etc.

How can that be true when you have played the pirc and alekhine 216 times in total? Compared to your only 20 times playing e5.....;) 

I enter the Philidor through the Pirc move order 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 then 3...e5, White will either play the Q-less endgame or go into a regular Hanham with 4. Nf3.  This avoids having to learn all the various things White can throw at you after 1.e4 e5 as well as some perhaps dubious Philidor defense's if Black does not opt to play the Antoshin (1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4).

I played Alekhine's Defense as my main defense from about 1995 to 2008, my chess.com history is probably not very representative of that :) (though on FICS where my username is KIA it would!) and before that, I played the French.