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Ruy Lopez ?

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Negoba

Is there a refutation to the following Ruy Lopez line (I use this as black against e4)

1. e4 e5

2. Nf3 Nc6

3. Bb5 a6

4. Ba4 Nf6

5. 0-0 b5

6. Bb3 Nxe4

a quick look with Fritz shows that Re1 and so on regains the pawn but that black at least gets equality and a nice development.

Similarly, in the standard line of the open Ruy,

e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bb5 a6 Ba4 Nf6 0-0 Nxe4, why doesn't white then exchange and take the pawn on e5? Bxc6 dxc6 Nxe5


bobobbob
After 6.Bb3 Nxe4, 7.d4 puts a lot of pressure on black.
TonightOnly

Yes, this is just the Open Spanish. 7.d4 is the book response, although it is nothing of a refutation. 7.Re1 is straightforward, but does not put as much pressure on black's center.

 

As far as why not make a sort of exchange variation out of the open: 7...Bc5, and black has an advantage. It looks like white has to play 8.Nd3, where he has no hope but draw. Not only is this position cramped for white, but black will have an easy time creating a kingside attack.


Negoba
Why is the d4 different with the B at b3 than at a4?
TonightOnly

You should know that I am no expert on the Spanish. I believe I know the answer to your question, though. The standard order of moves is

 

1.e4 e5  2.Nf3 Nc6  3.Bb5 a6  4.Ba4 Nf6  5.0-0 Nxe4  6.d4 b5  7.Bb3 d5

 

In your line, the bishop was kicked back a move earlier. This is still just a transposition of the Open Spanish, though, and the book move is 7.d4. The reason for this is to place pressure on the center. The bishop is no longer threatening the knight, and so is no longer exerting pressure on e5. So your question becomes 'Then why, when the bishop is still on a4, do we need to challenge the center with 6.d4?' The answer is that the main line anticipates ...b5. If white were to play 6.Re1, black could respond 6...b5, where there will be less of a challenge to the center. 6.Re1 and 7.Re1 are still decent moves, of course, but are probably not the very best.


Negoba
I'm asking because I only play the Ruy AS BLACK and it seems like pushing the bishop off the knight actually helps, by preventing the possibility of removing the defender with the exchange.
sstteevveenn
Nothing wrong with the open lopez, although strangely I almost never see it.  I cant remember the last time someone played Nxe4 against me actually.  Maybe they think i'm expecting it or something, or maybe like me, they just think the closed lopez is simpler.  It's rare enough in my experience that it might even count as a surprise weapon at low levels!  I can easily imagine some people not knowing what to do if someone actually takes the pawn.  Surprised
KillaBeez
The open Lopez is not so hot for White.  Watch this...

sstteevveenn
It's a brave man that gives 5. 0-0 a !?  The ending you show is a known win for white (if you're capablanca).  Certainly the position is good for white.  I dont think you will see this (the riga variation) being played at the top level.  Also while the open lopez itself (not the riga variation though) is thought of as fine for black, i think it's generally thought that the closed is more critical. 
EnGliSHCheSsPlAy

i dont like ruylopez


EricHP2
I'm not a big fan of it either. Killabeez points out, it can put white in a bad position.
BasicLvrCH8r
sstteevveenn wrote: It's a brave man that gives 5. 0-0 a !?  The ending you show is a known win for white (if you're capablanca).  Certainly the position is good for white.  I dont think you will see this (the riga variation) being played at the top level.  Also while the open lopez itself (not the riga variation though) is thought of as fine for black, i think it's generally thought that the closed is more critical. 

 How is it a win for white? He is a two pawns down and undeveloped. His only compensation is two pieces for a rook.


sstteevveenn

it just is... White gets all his pieces out no problem which is more than can be said for black.  Black has a weak pawn, poor king and fewer pieces.  It's a very well known line and is good for white. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 or for more detail here's how capablanca played it.   5.0-0 is the mainline of one of the oldest, soundest openings in chess.  You are really going to struggle to refute it on move 5 with obvious/natural moves.  Most of that combination is forced, and people are still playing the ruy (almost never 6.exd4?! though)