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Why would this refute the Slav if it's good for Black? If anything, it would refute the Queen's Gambit!
Fortunately, this does not refute the Queen's Gambit. White scores quite nicely in this line!
How exactly is Slav refuted when it's an opening from Black's perspective and Black apparently does well in your given variation?Edit: clunney said basically the same thing.
Every variation is bad for black in the slav where you allow white to play cxd4 followed by Qb3. This is not an exception. White has two interesting options. After Bd2 he can play Nb5. And after e5 which is your last move white can simply take on e5 and then win the d5 pawn. So this line is refuted for sure :D
From Glasgow with love
I see titled players all the time who know much less than their title would lead you to believe.
Refuting the slav with the black pieces but the slav is an opening for black.
Next thread - How to refute the Sicilian with your very own black pieces !! Please stay tuned !!!
black has initiative in that final position... looks quite dangerous for white. but it all depends on how greedy your opponent is, will probably work very well in club chess.
I suspect that taking on e5 and then d5 gives black too much, starting with ...Bb4+
Edit: after 11...Nxd5 12.Qxd5 Bb4+ 13.Bd2 Bxd2+ 14.Qxd2 Qf6
Black is threatening ...Rxb2, the Houdini evaluation is -0.43, and white's best is either 15.Qd4 Rxb2 16.Be2 or the crazy 15.f4 Rxb2 16.fxe5 Qxf1+
This is an interesting line. 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 is actually more of an Anti-Slav: White is denying Black the opportunity to enter the ...dxc4 main lines since c4 is protected, but Black still has the Schlecter ..g6, the Chebanenko ..a6, and of course the Semi-Slav ..e6. But if 4...Bf5 is fine for Black maybe it represents the best Anti-Anti-Slav!
White can avoid all this by playing 3.Nf3 controlling the e5 square and leading into the main waters after 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4.
Great point. 3.Nc3 is really an attempt to prevent black from playing ...Bf5 early. Nothing to stop black from going into the regular stuff you talk about. In contrast, 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 is an attempt to prevent black from into the Semi-Slav, since 4...e6 isn't as good when one of the main tactical themes of the Semi is not there (...b5-b4 attacking the knight). But of course 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 allows a perfectly reasonable 4...Bf5. So it's a subtle move order question. Or it can be a "read your opponent" thing, like poker. What do you think is their Slav bread & butter.
Because at my level, I don't play too many opponents who are well prepared in many Slav lines. They usually have one.
I don't think you can prevent Black from playing ...Bf5, you can only try to make it more dubious than normal. For instance IM Alex Lenderman recommends 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bf5!? for Black, and if it really works there it probably works anywhere. If White pops out with Qb3 to grab material Black just plays in gambit style, out of necessity.
The problem with gambits such as these is that it cannot be part of a narrow repertoire, since preparation is "easy". So it's ok as a surprise. Also, isn't black's best there ...Bc8? (Wojo)
I've looked at this line from White's perspective in the past. I concluded that Black does have decent play. If white wants to be pragmatic, he should just go 5.Nf3. Then after ...e6 (which is basically Black's only consistent move) you transpose into another main line. White secures his normal opening advantage with 6.Nh4 with well analysed play (hundreds and hundreds of GM games).
As you've already observed, there's no point walking the tightrope of the sharp positions where white is a pawn up and needing extreme accuracy.
I'm not sure, I don't play this way for Black. ...Bc8 seems rather lame. Is the pawn structure so drawish that the extra moves Nc3+Qb3 mean nothing?
I guess it's no worse than this Petroff position where White's extra moves Be2 + Bg5 have no impact. Here though one could argue Bg5 is a negative move because it gets hit with ..h6:
I thought that White usually played 3.Nf3 to avoid 3.Nc3 dxc4. You can get this in the queen's gambit accepted as well after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nc3 c6.
Anyway I think it's only 0.0 because an engine can see a way out for White... Is 14.b3 losing horribly to something? I don't think Black has any ...Nxf2 cheapos comming.
As far as I know, White very often plays 3. Nf3 to avoid 3. ...e5, which is sharp and annoying. The 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 Bf5!? line is perfectly fine for Black (5. Qb3 is met by Qb6 and is nothing) 5. cxd5 cxd5 6. Qb3 should most likely be met by Bc8!, since I really doubt Black's compensation in this line (at our level, it's perfectly playable of course), and Black has no problems after the solid Bc8.
3.Nf3 is the main line slav.
3.Nc3, if white wants to try to play for a win, is only very good if it's followed by 4.cxd5, playing the exchange variation.
That is as far as I know.
Yes, 3.Nf3 avoids both 3...dxc4 and 3...e5.
But 3...dxc4 isn't winning or anything for black. One could argue it's one of the easier lines to learn for white actually. 4.e4 b5 5.a4 b4 and then either Aronian's 6.Nb1 Ba6 Qc2 or Anand's 6.Nce2.
3...e5 I haven't studied much, but it doesn't _look_ like something one should be scared of.
If they're following Avrukh, they'll play 5.Nf3 a6!?, which is a new trend that has been catching on lately.
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