Does anybody else play this variation of the Two Knights Defense? (1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 Bc5!?)

 

It's an extremely sharp opening with chances for both sides. My favorite continuation is 5 Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6 Kxf2 Nxe4+. The resulting games can often get very, very crazy.

hallo

looks interesting

but no time toget the board and cheke it

may if you do it by steps with images i get some help.

thanks...

 

REALLY GOOD!!

Here the diagram for ferlop

Hehe yes , I have played this and if white is not careful he can get in trouble really quickly .

thanks once again ...

love .

if u wana .

I had a look at this variation along time ago but the only problem is white can simply go for a stable advantage with Bf7+ instead of Nf7 and then all you're analysis is useless. Also I think that Kf1 is slightly better than Kxf2 but it is very easy to get lost in the analysis.

Kf1! is better than Kxf2.

I really want to play this as black, but I never get into this sort of position for some reason xD 

Amnesiac wrote:I had a look at this variation along time ago but the only problem is white can simply go for a stable advantage with Bf7+ instead of Nf7 and then all you're analysis is useless. Also I think that Kf1 is slightly better than Kxf2 but it is very easy to get lost in the analysis.

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What are you talking about? Bxf7+ is the better move, but Black is still OK after 5 ... Ke7 6 Bd5 Rf8 (or even 6 ... d6) with Qe8-h5 and Bg4 to follow.

Shruikon wrote:

Kf1! is better than Kxf2.

I really want to play this as black, but I never get into this sort of position for some reason xD 

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6 Kf1 is certainly playable, but nothing special. Black is fine after 5 Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6 Kf1 Qe7 7 Nxh8 d5 8 exd5 Nd4.

ive  posted  a complete  game of this variation.  me playing white  and gone wrong. try to find "this is called traxler gambit i think" and ive  stated there where i did go wrong and what should be played. also try to search this to chessgames.com database. it features many minitures of this variation and how to continue to this attack (or defend if your black). some masters have commented on it there.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?eco=C57&node=2003364 

fischer wrote: Amnesiac wrote:I had a look at this variation along time ago but the only problem is white can simply go for a stable advantage with Bf7+ instead of Nf7 and then all you're analysis is useless. Also I think that Kf1 is slightly better than Kxf2 but it is very easy to get lost in the analysis.

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What are you talking about? Bxf7+ is the better move, but Black is still OK after 5 ... Ke7 6 Bd5 Rf8 (or even 6 ... d6) with Qe8-h5 and Bg4 to follow.

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 Well, he didn't say after 5. Bxf7+ black is totally hopeless. The way I see it, and maybe what he is trying to say, is that those who play 4...Bc5 seem to be hoping that white will walk into the 5. Nxf7 maze and get lost. You yourself admitted to this hope. I agree that black is OK after 6. Bd5 Rf8 and that some of the counterplay on f2 is still alive. However, after 7. Nf3, white seems to have more of an advantage than one can usually hope for after 7 moves.

tonightonly7 wrote:

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Well, he didn't say after 5. Bxf7+ black is totally hopeless. The way I see it, and maybe what he is trying to say, is that those who play 4...Bc5 seem to be hoping that white will walk into the 5. Nxf7 maze and get lost. You yourself admitted to this hope.

 

Actually no, I don't "hope" for 5 Nxf7 and never admitted such. (Personally, I'm fine with either move.) He said that after "Bxf7+ instead of Nxf7 and then all you're analysis is useless," which is nonsense. 

 

I agree that black is OK after 6. Bd5 Rf8 and that some of the counterplay on f2 is still alive. However, after 7. Nf3, white seems to have more of an advantage than one can usually hope for after 7 moves.

 

 

You obviously haven't studied this line. Like I said earlier, the queen will move to e8 and then h5, and the bishop will move to g4 to pin the knight after the d-pawn is sacrificed. Sometimes the rook will be sacrificed with a capture on f3, but then the other rook slides over to regain control of the f-file.

 

There's still lots of play for both sides, but in no way does White seem "to have more of an advantage than one can usually hope for after 7 moves."

 

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fischer wrote: Shruikon wrote:

Kf1! is better than Kxf2.

I really want to play this as black, but I never get into this sort of position for some reason xD 

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6 Kf1 is certainly playable, but nothing special. Black is fine after 5 Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6 Kf1 Qe7 7 Nxh8 d5 8 exd5 Nd4.

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 Of course it's playable, and Black can get a big attack going still, but it's a lot better than the greedy Kxf2.

fischer wrote: tonightonly7 wrote:

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You yourself admitted to this hope.

 Actually no, I don't "hope" for 5 Nxf7 and never admitted such.

 

You obviously haven't studied this line.

 

There's still lots of play for both sides, but in no way does White seem "to have more of an advantage than one can usually hope for after 7 moves."

 

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Your right, I assumed that this is your hope...

and still do.

 

You are also correct that I have not studied this line much. Warranted or not, I got bored with the two knights long ago.

 

However, I will continue to hold my pedestrian view that this is not a convincing line for black. I will not deny the presence of counterplay, but simply that this opening seems to let white get away with more than some other openings, when met with sound play. This is nothing new though, as I usually give more credit to those openings that give precedence to equality over counterplay.

I agree with that. There are certainly other openings that are a lot less wild for Black.

fischer wrote: tonightonly7 wrote:

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Well, he didn't say after 5. Bxf7+ black is totally hopeless. The way I see it, and maybe what he is trying to say, is that those who play 4...Bc5 seem to be hoping that white will walk into the 5. Nxf7 maze and get lost. You yourself admitted to this hope.

 

Actually no, I don't "hope" for 5 Nxf7 and never admitted such. (Personally, I'm fine with either move.) He said that after "Bxf7+ instead of Nxf7 and then all you're analysis is useless," which is nonsense. 

 

I agree that black is OK after 6. Bd5 Rf8 and that some of the counterplay on f2 is still alive. However, after 7. Nf3, white seems to have more of an advantage than one can usually hope for after 7 moves.

 

 

You obviously haven't studied this line. Like I said earlier, the queen will move to e8 and then h5, and the bishop will move to g4 to pin the knight after the d-pawn is sacrificed. Sometimes the rook will be sacrificed with a capture on f3, but then the other rook slides over to regain control of the f-file.

 

There's still lots of play for both sides, but in no way does White seem "to have more of an advantage than one can usually hope for after 7 moves."

 

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My point was that even if you know all the different Nf7 lines inside out there is still Bf7+ to look at. The Bd5 line to get rid of one of the black knights is only an absolute top level chess players choice and against people who havent studied the line they will most likely play something like Bb3. Since black is a pawn down so early I admit that you do have compensation but white dosent really have that much to worry about as he could always give back a pawn and the black king is awkwardly placed.

So what I mean to say is in the Nf7 line white can get lost in the maze easily but in the Bf7+ line it will be black that has to prove himself in a position that is OK for white.

Amnesiac wrote:

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My point was that even if you know all the different Nf7 lines inside out there is still Bf7+ to look at. The Bd5 line to get rid of one of the black knights is only an absolute top level chess players choice and against people who havent studied the line they will most likely play something like Bb3. Since black is a pawn down so early I admit that you do have compensation but white dosent really have that much to worry about as he could always give back a pawn and the black king is awkwardly placed.

So what I mean to say is in the Nf7 line white can get lost in the maze easily but in the Bf7+ line it will be black that has to prove himself in a position that is OK for white.

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I think you need to study this line and get familiar with it. The king is perfectly safe on e7, and I think it's obvious that Black needs to learn both the Nxf7 and Bxf7+ lines. What you just said can pretty much be said about any line that has more than one variation.

 

Also, there are plenty of "mazes" in the Bxf7+ line. You need to look at them.

tonightonly7 wrote:

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Your right, I assumed that this is your hope...

and still do.

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[Edit from 11/3] Sorry, I missed this statement from earlier. Why would you make such an assumption? Playing a line and "hoping" that your opponent makes a particular move is NOT the way to properly play chess. Whenever I play the Traxler, I don't "hope" for 5 Nxf7 any more than I "hope" for 2 h4 when I play the Sicilian. Whatever move my opponent makes is fine with me. (One should always be prepared for all major variations of a line and not "hope" for anything.) Also, for the record, 5 Nxf7 is not a totally inferior move that has been refuted, as some people would think.

 

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I think I've seen it before

 

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fischer wrote:

Does anybody else play this variation of the Two Knights Defense? (1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 Bc5!?)

 

It's an extremely sharp opening with chances for both sides. My favorite continuation is 5 Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6 Kxf2 Nxe4+. The resulting games can often get very, very crazy.

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 I play the Ulvted(sp?) Gambit