Analysis of 5.Nxf7,6.Kxf2, 7.Ke3

This is the current state of the analysis. I haven't incorporated mysticknight's suggestion from post #154 from the original forum yet. What is a main and a side variation is a little arbitrary, but this is a start.

Black seems to get a strong initiative and two pawns for a piece in line B, which may be white's best try. In line A, white has to setly for equality in A2,3 or 4, because A1 seems good for black. Line D and 11.Be2 might require further analysis.

Upon overwhelming request, in algebraics:

(about the names of the variations, I thought it best to pinpoint certain tabiya positions and only then systematically name variations, so as to avoid lines called A12b2331, etc.)

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.
Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+
7. Ke3 Qh4 8. g3 Nxg3 9. hxg3 Qd4+ 10. Kf3 d5 11. Rh4
    (11. Be2 mysticknight's suggestion, which I have yet to look at.)
11... e4+ 12. Kg2 O-O 13. Nc3 (tabiya one, who knows a name?, Nc3 is variation A)
    (B)13. Bb3 Rxf7 14. Qg1
        (14. Rf4 Rxf4 15. gxf4 Be6 16. Nc3 unclear)
    14... Qe5 15. Nc3 g5 =)

    (C)13. Qh5 Rxf7 14. Qxh7+
        (14. Bb3!?)
    14... Kf8 15.Qh8+ Ke7 16. Rf4
        (16. Bb3 Qf2+)
    16... Rxf4 17. gxf4 dxc4 -/+)

    (D)13. Rf4 dxc4 14. Qf1 Be6 15. Ng5 Bd5 16. Nc3 e3+ =)

(A ctd.)13... dxc4 14. Qh5 Ne7 (A1)15. Qxh7+
    (A2)15. Nxe4 Bf5 16. Nfg5 h6
        (16... Qd5!? 17. d3 cxd3 18. cxd3 h6 19. Nf3 Ng6 20. Rh1 unclear)
    17. Nc3 Bg4 18. Nh3 Qf6 19. Rxg4 Qf1+ 20. Kh2 Rf2+ 21. Nxf2 Qxf2+ 22. Kh3 Qf1+ =)

    (A3)15. b3 cxb3 16. Qxh7+
        (16. axb3 Ng6 =)
        (16. Ng5?? Qf2+)
    16... Kxf7 17. Rxe4 Qd6 18. Rf4+
        (18. axb3? Bf5 19. Rf4? Qxf4 -+)
    18... Ke8 19. Qh5+ g6 20. Rxf8+ Kxf8 21. Qf3+ Kg8 22. axb3 Bd7 =)

    (A4)15. Rxe4 Qf6 16. Rf4 Qc6+
        (16... Qg6?! 17. Qxg6 Nxg6 18. Nh6+ gxh6 19. Rxc4 +=)
    17. Kg1
        (17. Rf3 Qe8 18. Nh6+ gxh6 19. Rxf8+ Qxf8 20. d3 cxd3 21.
        Bxh6 Qf7 22. Qg5+ Qg6 23. Qxe7 Qxh6 24. Qd8+ Qf8 25. Qd5+
        Qf7 26. cxd3 Qxd5+ 27. Nxd5 c6 28. Ne7+ Kf7 29. Nxc8 Rxc8
        30. Rh1 Kg6 =)
    17... Qb6+
        (17... Qe8?! 18. Nh6+ gxh6 19. Qxe8 Rxe8 20. Rxc4 +=)
    18. Kh2
        (18. Rf2 Bf5 19. Nd5
            (19. Ng5? Qxf2+)
        19... Qxf2+
            (19... Qc5? 20.Nf6+ gxf6 21. Nh6+)
        20. Kxf2 Nxd5 21. Nh6+ gxh6 22. Kg1 Rae8 with decent compensation.)
    18... Qg6 19.Qxg6 Nxg6 20. Nh6+ gxh6 21. Rxc4 Be6 = 22. Rxc7?? Rf2+
    with a strong attack, e.g.: 23. Kg1 Raf8 24. Ne4 Rf1+ 25. Kh2 Bd5 26. d3
    Bxe4 27. dxe4 R8f2+ 28. Kh3 Rh1+ 29. Kg4 Ne5#)
(A1 ctd.)15... Kxf7 16. Rxe4 Qf6 17. Rxc4 Bf5 18. Qh4
    (18. Qh1 b5 19. Nxb5? Qe6 20. Rf4 Nd5 21. Rf3
        (21. Rf2? Kg6 22. Kg1 Bd3 23. Qg2 Qe1+ -+)
    21... Qe2+ 22. Kg1 Kg8 -/+)
18... g5 19. Qh5+ Kg7 20. Qe2
    (20. Rxc7?? Bh3+ 21. Kxh3 Qf1+ 22. Kg4 Qf5#)
20... Rae8 And black has a strong initiative, e.g.: 21. Rxc7?? Bg4 22.Qe1 Bf3+
23. Kg1 Rh8 -+

This was a typographical experiment, but I think it's quite clear. Should I use it for the other fora too?

Most of it is good, but it took me a minute to find the continuation of A. Perhaps it should be seperated from D by a line?

Well done collecting the lines. It must have been a lot of work to put together all these variations!

Will do. I will also write a summary like you did.

It was mostly typographical, the rest was done during the discussion.

I found this game then checked it with Rybka. This is why 8.c3 is bad.

[Event "?"]
[Site "corr IECG"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[White "Tanti,Joseph "]
[Black "Claridge,John "]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C57"]
[Round "?"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7. Ke3 Qe7 8. c3 d5 9. Bxd5 Qc5+ 10. Kxe4 Bf5+ 11. Kxf5 Qxd5 12. Nxh8 Ne7+ 13. Kg5 Qxg2+ 14. Qg4 Qxh1 15. Qh5+ g6 16. Nxg6 Nxg6 17. Qh3 Qxc1 18. Kf6 Nf4 19. Qf5 Nd5+ 20. Kg5 Qg1+ 21. Kh4 Ne7 22. Qxe5 O-O-O 23. Qxe7 Qf2+ 0-1

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I analyzed with Rybka all the way to 16.d3 then found this game to match!

[Event "?"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1993.??.??"]
[White "Holzner "]
[Black "Bruchtel "]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C57"]
[Round "?"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7. Ke3 Qe7 8. Nxh8 Qg5+ 9. Kxe4 d5+ 10. Bxd5 Bf5+ 11. Kf3 Bg4+ 12. Kf2 Bxd1 13. Bxc6+ bxc6 14. Rxd1 Qh5 15. Rf1 Qxh2 16. d3 Kd7 17. Nd2 Rxh8 18. Nf3 Qh5 19. Bd2 Re8 20. Bc3 e4 21. dxe4 Rxe4 22. Bd4 g5 23. Rh1 Qf7 24. Kg1 Qf4 25. Rxh7+ Kc8 26. Rd1 g4 27. Rh4 Qd6 28. Rd3 gxf3 29. Rxe4 Qg6 30. Rxf3 Qxe4 31. Bc3 Qxc2 32. a3 Kd7 1/2-1/2

Is that a position you want to play with White? I'm not so sure that I would.

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An interesting transposition:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7. Ke3 Qh4 8. g3 Nxg3 9. hxg3 Qd4+ 10. Kf3 O-O!? 11. Rh4 e4+ 12. Kg2 (12.Rxe4 doesn't fair well) d5 (Transposes)

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After 13.Qh5 all you really have is a draw as this games illustrates.

[Event "?"]
[Site "Dearborn US open"]
[Date "1992.??.??"]
[White "Johnstone,G "]
[Black "Finegold,Benjamin "]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C57"]
[Round "7"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7. Ke3 Qh4 8. g3 Nxg3 9. hxg3 Qd4+ 10. Kf3 d5 11. Rh4 e4+ 12. Kg2 O-O 13. Qh5 Rxf7 14. Bxd5 1/2-1/2

---

I found this to be the best continuation...

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.
Ke3 Qh4 8. g3 Nxg3 9. hxg3 Qd4+ 10. Kf3 d5 11. Rh4 e4+ 12. Kg2 O-O
13. Bb3 Rxf7 14. Qg1 Qe5 15. d3 Nd4 16. Bf4 Qf6 17. Bxd5 Nxc2 18. Bxf7+
Qxf7 19. dxe4 Nxa1 20. Qd1 Qf6 21. Nc3 g5 22. Qd5+ Be6 23. Bxg5 Bxd5 24.
Bxf6 and white has the initiative.

Maybe 7...Qe7 is better.

---

Also the 11.Be2 that I suggested from that book is equal. You can drop it.

The book I used to own was written well before chess computers of any relative strength.

Apparently you can never delete a post as it resets the post count...

Oh, that's what happened. I wondered why there were only two comments counted.

Well...I knew I should have looked at that pawn sac...

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.
Ke3 Qh4 8. g3 Nxg3 9. hxg3 Qd4+ 10. Kf3 d5 11. Rh4 e4+ 12. Kg2 O-O
13. Bb3 Rxf7 14. Qg1 Qe5 15. d3 g5!! 16. Rh5 h6 17. Rxh6 Bg4 18. Rg6+ Rg7
19. Rxg7+ Kxg7 20. Qe3 Bf3+ 21. Kf2 Kg6 =

I discoverd it from an article I found - http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss23.pdf

It has a wealth of information on the 6.Kf1 line as well as others.

"I found this game then checked it with Rybka. This is why 8.c3 is bad.

[Event "?"]
[Site "corr IECG"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[White "Tanti,Joseph "]
[Black "Claridge,John "]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C57"]
[Round "?"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7. Ke3 Qe7 8. c3 d5 9. Bxd5 Qc5+ 10. Kxe4 Bf5+ 11. Kxf5 Qxd5 12. Nxh8 Ne7+ 13. Kg5 Qxg2+ 14. Qg4 Qxh1 15. Qh5+ g6 16. Nxg6 Nxg6 17. Qh3 Qxc1 18. Kf6 Nf4 19. Qf5 Nd5+ 20. Kg5 Qg1+ 21. Kh4 Ne7 22. Qxe5 O-O-O 23. Qxe7 Qf2+ 0-1"

8.c3 d5 9.Bxd5 Qc5+ 10.Kxe4?? is a poor move that is met by 10...Bf5+ as in your game.  White is supposed to play 10.d4

10.d4 Qxd5 11.Nxe5 Nf6 12.Nf3 0-0 13.Qb3 Be6 14.Qxd5 Ng4+ 15.Ke4 Nf2+ 16.Ke3 Ng4+ perpetual 1/2-1/2

Critical is 8.Nxh8!

8.Nxh8 d5 9.Qh5+ and black is under heavy pressure.

8.Nxh8 Qg5+ 9.Kxe4 d5+ 10.Bxd5 Bf5+ 11.Kf3 Bg4+ 12.Kf2 Bxd1 13.Bxc6+ bxc6 14.Rxd1 Qh5 15.Rf1 Qxh2 16.d3 0-0-0 17.Nd2 and white has good chances for consolidating.

16...Kd7 is a new move though.

In your game, the end result was a draw, but with four pieces for the queen, white may have something better.  It is not completely obvious though.

I think we might need to look into 7...Qe7 for the sake of completeness.  I will give a starting point to find improvements.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qe7 and white has two moves:

A:  8.c3 d5 (8...Qc5+? 9.d4 exd4+ 10.cxd4 Qe7 11.Re1 Rf8 12.Kf3 d5 13.Bxd5 Bg4+ 14.Kxg4 Nf2+ 15.Kg3 Nxd1 16.Bxc6+ bxc6 17.Rxe7+ Kxe7 18.Ne5 and white wins) 9.Bxd5 Qc5+ 10.d4 (10.Kxe4 Bf5+) 10...Qxd5 11.Nxe5 Nf6 12.Nf3 (12.Nxc6? Qe4+ 13.Kf2 Ng4+ 14.Kg3 0-0 15.Rf1 Rxf1 16.Qxf1 Qxc6 with an attack) 12...0-0 13.Qb3 Be6 14.Qxd5 Ng4+ 15.Ke4 Nf2+ 16.Ke3 Ng4+ perpetual

B:  8.Nxh8 Qg5+ (8...d5 9.Qh5+) 9.Kxe4 d5+ 10.Bxd5 Bf5+ 11.Kf3 Bg4+ 12.Kf2 Bxd1 13.Bxc6+ bxc6 14.Rxd1 Qh5 15.Rf1 Qxh2 16.d3 0-0-0 17.Nd2 with four pieces for the queen.  White has good chances of consolidating.

Well, white has another possibility with 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.Qf3!? that was played against me.  The only move I could find that saves black was

8...Ng3!! which forces a perpetual check as I saw nothing better for black.

9.Qxg3 Qd4+ 10.Kf3 Qxc4 11.Nxh8 Nd4+ 12.Kf2 Qe2+ 13.Kg1 Qd1+ 1/2-1/2

Thoughts?

Update on the 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.Qf3 variation.

8.Qf3 Nf6 9.d3 d5 and black has a significant advantage.

Small update on the 8.Qf3 line, that I faced for the first time today:

Interesting, never realized that one before.