Are ID/YECs right about anything?

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TruthMuse
stephen_33 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

I won't go another 20 rounds again talking about what we think went on millions or billions of years ago with what we see in the here and now. To promote a theory that some believe mindlessness can account for it all, while at the same time, they cannot talk about how it could possibly start and be creative in engineering new forms and features without an engineer.

A couple of observations - what we see buried within rocks is in its way a little like something laid out in a book with various groups of lifeforms contained within their own 'chapters'. These things tell their own story for those that have the open-minded understanding to read it.

So it's curious that you cling to the contents of one book while brushing aside the geological one but that's your choice.

On this: "To promote a theory that some believe mindlessness can account for it all..." - I'll admit that over the months of this and similar discussions I've come to realise the problems involved in finding a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life are considerably greater than I'd realised. Notwithstanding, I shall continue to look to those I regard as being best informed (on the planet) on the subject, the research community, to provide a lead and when they admit the search is hopeless, I'll accept that.

I'm someone who strongly believes that what we hold to be the case (our propositional beliefs) should be guided by the available evidence and nothing else. I try to be aware of my own biases and avoid holding prejudiced beliefs to the best of my ability.

So if anyone wants to explore the hypothesis of a non-natural cause of the origin of life I'm up for it but be warned because it's a much more open subject than some seem prepared to admit!

 

The difference between what you are suggesting is the thing I'm talking about is in the here and now and it is the exact same processes in play throughout all of life in time, unlike your theories about what is in the ground and why. I can say there is nothing outside of what we see that produces code that can do what we see outside of a great coder. Even with millions of dollars, great minds at work, and research for years, we still cannot do what life does. Yet some believe under a rock somewhere a mindless activity did it and that mindless activity is getting right even today.

In your observations, you have to assume there were no forces at play that also couldn't cause what we see, no series of events that we don't know about because no one observed them, you assume the only way that could happen is the way you say it did, you can believe that if you want but those are beliefs that cannot be shown true only believed in.

TruthMuse
stephen_33 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

I won't go another 20 rounds again talking about what we think went on millions or billions of years ago with what we see in the here and now. To promote a theory that some believe mindlessness can account for it all, while at the same time, they cannot talk about how it could possibly start and be creative in engineering new forms and features without an engineer.

A couple of observations - what we see buried within rocks is in its way a little like something laid out in a book with various groups of lifeforms contained within their own 'chapters'. These things tell their own story for those that have the open-minded understanding to read it.

So it's curious that you cling to the contents of one book while brushing aside the geological one but that's your choice.

On this: "To promote a theory that some believe mindlessness can account for it all..." - I'll admit that over the months of this and similar discussions I've come to realise the problems involved in finding a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life are considerably greater than I'd realised. Notwithstanding, I shall continue to look to those I regard as being best informed (on the planet) on the subject, the research community, to provide a lead and when they admit the search is hopeless, I'll accept that.

I'm someone who strongly believes that what we hold to be the case (our propositional beliefs) should be guided by the available evidence and nothing else. I try to be aware of my own biases and avoid holding prejudiced beliefs to the best of my ability.

So if anyone wants to explore the hypothesis of a non-natural cause of the origin of life I'm up for it but be warned because it's a much more open subject than some seem prepared to admit!

 

These things are talked about more than in just one book, don't kid yourself, your denial of that book is what the main reason you refuse to acknowledge the possibility?

stephen_33
TruthMuse wrote:

These things are talked about more than in just one book, don't kid yourself, your denial of that book is what the main reason you refuse to acknowledge the possibility?

It's very difficult to have a worthwhile conversation with someone who stubbornly refuses to believe anything outside of the pages of the OT.

I've offered an opening to have a different discussion about the origin of life but whether you want to engage is up to you.

tbwp10
tbwp10 wrote:

You don't have to go twenty rounds. You just need to provide a better explanation for the observational evidence. But you never do. You never even make an attempt. That is the number one weakness with your arguments. You say you "take the observational evidence" the same as "everyone" else, but you actually don't. You fail to address and account for the observational evidence at all.

For example, you need to explain why, if most of the rock record is around the same age or the result of a one year global flood, then why don't the radioisotopes in those rocks all show the same amount of radioactive decay? Why do they show different stages of decay that increase the further down one goes in the rock record? Why does the amount of radioactive decay in rocks of the ocean floor increase with distance from the Mid-Atlantic Ridge? Why do the ages of those rocks as determined from radioactive decay match the age that we would expect them to be if the seafloor has been spreading at the same rate that we observe and directly measure it to be spreading today?

@TruthMuse, you made the claim that you look at the same observational evidence like everyone else, but just don't have the same interpretation. I disputed that this is what you are doing, but said I would give you the benefit of the doubt. So you've been given the chance to provide a better (or equally good) explanation of the *same* observational evidence (like with the above questions). Can you do it or not? Can you truly back up your claim or not?

*Let's take the above as an example: The further ocean floor basalt rocks are from the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, the greater the radioactive decay observed in those rocks. The age of those rocks based on radioactive decay (let's call it the "purported age," since you dispute that)---the "purported age" of those rocks based on radioactive decay rates is what we would expect them to be if the seafloor has been spreading at the same rate that we *directly* observe and measure it to be spreading today. For example, the slope of the line in the graph above is 2.1 centimeters per year. This is comparable to the rate of seafloor spreading that we *directly* observe and measure today. Now that is a remarkable coincidence. And the most straightforward explanation of that 'coincidence' is that the seafloor has been spreading at the rate of ~2 cm per year for ~180 million years.

*In order to dispute this, and to argue that ~4,550 km of seafloor spreading happened very rapidly on an earth that is only thousands of years old, then you need to explain how seafloor spreading could occur at a rate of ~0.75-1.0 kilometers per year (if the earth is about 6,000 years old), or if you adopt the commonly held young earth belief that most seafloor spreading is the result of 'runaway' plate tectonics during a one year global flood, then you must account for a seafloor spreading rate of ~10 kilometers per day! Then you must further explain what could cause radioactive decay to accelerate by several orders of magnitude of what we observe today, so that it just so happens to produce the remarkable coincidence today of the "purported ages" and locations of the ocean floor rocks being what we would expect them to be if the seafloor was spreading for ~180 million years at the ~2 cm per year rate that we observe and measure today. Then finally, you must explain or otherwise account for how to dissipate all the heat that would be generated by such an accelerated rate of decay so the earth's oceans wouldn't boil away.

*If you can successfully do this, then, and only then, can you claim that you're relying on the same observational evidence as everyone else, but just interpreting it differently. 

TruthMuse
stephen_33 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

These things are talked about more than in just one book, don't kid yourself, your denial of that book is what the main reason you refuse to acknowledge the possibility?

It's very difficult to have a worthwhile conversation with someone who stubbornly refuses to believe anything outside of the pages of the OT.

I've offered an opening to have a different discussion about the origin of life but whether you want to engage is up to you.

Stop bringing up the book, if you didn't talk about it why would I, it isn't like it carries weight with you? It is the excuse you use to avoid acknowledging where the evidence leads.

tbwp10

The great irony of accusing someone of avoiding acknowledging where the evidence leads, while you are blatantly avoiding acknowledging where the evidence leads. 

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:

The great irony of accusing someone of avoiding acknowledging where the evidence leads, while you are blatantly avoiding acknowledging where the evidence leads. 

Who are you talking about? 

tbwp10

You

tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

The great irony of accusing someone of avoiding acknowledging where the evidence leads, while you are blatantly avoiding acknowledging where the evidence leads. 

Who are you talking about? 

You, and you still have yet to provide an equal or better explanation of the observational evidence in post #64

TruthMuse

And what exactly do you think I am disputing in your better explanation of your observational evidence?

tbwp10

Let's not play twenty questions. I was very clear in my challenge to you in post #64. Can you meet the challenge or not?

stephen_33

In defending his unjustified beliefs the dogmatist has first to offer up the improbable, followed by the fantastic until finally only downright falsehood will serve.

I think T_M reached the third stage a little while back?

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:

Let's not play twenty questions. I was very clear in my challenge to you in post #64. Can you meet the challenge or not?

So when I put the same question to you, a simple one you refused to answer me. It wasn't even one that I pulled out of the air it was in response to something you said. Do you realize how evasive you are when it comes to answering the question is the coding in life evidence or not?

TruthMuse
stephen_33 wrote:

In defending his unjustified beliefs the dogmatist has first to offer up the improbable, followed by the fantastic until finally only downright falsehood will serve.

I think T_M reached the third stage a little while back?

Get specific, what is it I'm arguing against with your evidence, simply speaking about me has nothing to do with the point.

stephen_33

"what is it I'm arguing against" - you insist all life emerged at the same time which is demonstrably false.

When I challenged you to explain where all the material came from to form the many kilometres deep layers of rock we see today, you suggested it was 'just lying around'. Again, ridiculous. The strata we see are the result of geological processes taking place over hundreds of millions of years.

tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

Let's not play twenty questions. I was very clear in my challenge to you in post #64. Can you meet the challenge or not?

So when I put the same question to you, a simple one you refused to answer me. It wasn't even one that I pulled out of the air it was in response to something you said. Do you realize how evasive you are when it comes to answering the question is the coding in life evidence or not?

No, I have not been evasive. I am sick and tired of repeating myself for 2-3 years on this, only to have you keep questioning me on this, and even arguing against me on points that we agree. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I SAID THAT THE ORIGIN OF GENETIC 'CODE' IS PROBLEMATIC? (EVEN IN POST #1 OF THIS OP ON WHAT "ID/YECs GET RIGHT" I STATED THE LACK OF NATURALISTIC EXPLANATION FOR THE ORIGIN OF LIFE!). HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I DEFENDED YOU ON THIS BASIC POINT FOR YEARS? HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I DISCUSSED PHILOSOPHER ANTONY FLEW'S SIMILAR ARGUMENT ABOUT THIS AND HOW HE ARGUES FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD ON THE BASIS OF THE ORIGIN OF BIOLOGICAL INFORMATION AND THE ORIGIN OF LIFE? AND HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU KEEP ARGUING AGAINST ME ON THIS MATTER EVEN WHEN I AGREE WITH YOU? WE JUST DID THIS FIVE DAYS AGO AND HERE YOU ARE QUESTIONING ME AGAIN? SERIOUSLY, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?

TruthMuse

It may have something to do with saying I am wrong while you do it.

tbwp10

Oh right, like I did in post #14? Where do you see me telling you you're wrong in post 14?

Gheesh, you're still not satisfied. Here we go again. 

stephen_33

As someone who has no religious belief I feel I have to question this:

"HE [Anthony Flew] ARGUES FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD ON THE BASIS OF THE ORIGIN OF BIOLOGICAL INFORMATION AND THE ORIGIN OF LIFE"

I wonder quite what Flew has in mind by the term 'God' and such a conclusion still doesn't support belief in the being worshipped by conventional religion.

tbwp10

You already have questioned it. We've discussed this already too