Arguments against abortion for atheists.

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araski_

when dealing with atheists (open discussion forum) there is a problem. Atheists do not accept the word of God (for them does not exist), they argue that the law of the Lord is irrational. okay. here is an example that shows that atheists do not use them properly rationality. the Christian point of view: the precepts of the Lord are saints. the precepts of the Lord been revealed for the good of humanity. my opinion. the precepts of the Lord are rational. In fact, we can understand them. natural rights are written by the creator of the universe: God

here's proof: atheists irrational ideas.

[the natural rights. who decides that a woman can have an abortion? the woman alone? her husband ? the boyfriend? those who commit sexual assault ? society? the state? all viable options . a person is excluded from the decision : the child to be born . of course the child does not hold any rights. a rational reason ? the child can not speak. okay . the mute people do not have rights ? the child is not a citizen. okay . stateless persons have no rights ? the child is not aware . okay . people with severe brain damage have no rights ? the child is a part of the woman's body. the unborn child is not a human being. Really? because his heart beating? because it moves his arms and legs? the unborn child is a living being. this is a fact. at this stage the child can not live without a woman . okay . How many people survive with the help of medical devices ? the dialysis have no rights ? the unborn child is a living being that has no natural rights. incredible ! respond "rationally"to these questions.] 

 

MindWalk

Abortion is a very difficult issue to address, both because it is highly emotionally charged and because the morality involved, even without religious belief, is unclear.

When I attempted to address it years ago, it seemed to me that the fundamental question that had to be answered was this: What sorts of entities have what sorts of rights, to what degree, against whom, under what circumstances, and why?

I do not have a comprehensive answer, but I do have part of an answer: Thinking, feeling beings--the sorts of beings who care about how they are treated--are to be treated as morally relevant. Even a cat is morally relevant: it matters to the cat that you pet it instead of sticking a knife in it (even if it cannot formulate the thought). You don't get to do whatever you want to to a cat, as a moral matter. Even less do you have the moral freedom to do as you choose to a thinking, feeling being--like an adult human being or even a young child.

Is an embryo a thinking, feeling being? Does it care how it is treated? Could it care? I think the answer is clearly no. It has no more conscious awareness than a rock has. Unless one uses a potentiality argument having to do with the embryo's potentially becoming a thinking, feeling being, the embryo has no moral rights, and abortion of an embryo is morally permissible.

Is a fetus a thinking, feeling being? Does it care how it is treated? Could it care? Well, at some point in its development nerves develop and, presumably, the capacity to feel pain develops. At that point, it matters how the fetus is treated. It might be morally permissible to kill it painlessly, but not to kill it with the infliction of pain. So, abortion might then be morally permissible, but only if it is done in a way that does not cause the fetus to feel pain.

Carl Sagan noted that the capacity for rational thought requires a cerebral cortex (at least, it does in humans), and that that capacity did not develop until after the twentieth week. Reasoning that it is the capacity for rational thought that is supposed to separate human beings from the lower animals, and noting that we do not seem to think that it is morally wrong to kill chickens or cattle, Sagan concluded that we should not think of the fetus as having human rights until after the twentieth week, and should permit abortion before then.

I think that the fetus certainly is not a thinking, feeling being before then. It is not even a thinking, feeling being until well after birth. But it has the capacity to feel pain at some point--and it certainly does by twenty weeks--and at that point, it is like a cat: it matters how we treat it, even if we think that "having it put down" is OK.

So, because it is not yet a thinking, feeling being--because it is a mental blank slate, but one which can experience pain--my view is that abortion before twenty weeks is morally permissible but that the infliction of pain upon the fetus is not. This has implications for how abortion should be performed.

Of course, I have not here dealt with the potentiality argument.

Anastasios

Anastasios

www.lifesitenews.com/pulse/powerful-cnn-article-declares-im-a-feminist-and-im-against-abortion

MindWalk

The question is whether or not the embryo or fetus counts as "someone."

Anastasios

MindWalk

Do you really place more value on an embryo or a fetus, neither of which has a mental life, than on an adult human being, who is a thinking, feeling being? Do you really value potentiality over actuality?

MindWalk

Innocence is irrelevant when speaking of something that is not yet a thinking, feeling being. A rock is not a thinking, feeling being, but surely you would not speak of it as being innocent.

Anastasios

embryo is a thinking, feeling being.

MindWalk
[COMMENT DELETED]
MindWalk

Anastasios, with what brain does an embryo think or feel?

SubmarineMegalodon, yes, it would have been morally OK, because it would not have been getting rid of MindWalk--there was no MindWalk, only an unthinking, unfeeling embryonic cluster of cells. Of course, getting rid of MindWalk *now that he is a thinking, feeling being* would not be OK.

Anastasios

What is an embryo for you MindWalk?

Embryo is a Greek word and means the unborn child.

You dont feel only with the brain.

The brain system is developing from the first month and the heart of the baby starts at the 25th day of his life.

Anyone that after an accident or illness, damages his brain and it does not work, he does not stop to be a human.

I became "me" the exact moment of the conception and I am still changing and develope. I was me when I came out of my mother's body, I was me when I was given the name Anastasios in my Baptize, when I told my first word, when I graduated school, when I was married, when I saw my childrens come out of my wifes body.. and I will be Anastasios untill my last breath in this world. And then I will be a new Anastasios after my ressurection.

"Anastasios" is not my brain, or my heart, or my blood. Its not only my soul or only my body. It is an excistance with a begining but with no end. The only "end" that I wish not to have is the situation far from God (the true Existance and Life).

Anastasios

Who will explain me that icon?

MindWalk

Yes, you do think and feel with your brain.

If a baby is born with no brain, then it should not be treated as having moral rights.

If an adult human being is in an accident or has a disease that utterly destroys his brain, then he should not be treated as having moral rights.

Anastasios

Yes you think with your brain but you dont feel only with your brain.

No brain is easy! But what about someone with a little brain or a sick brain or a damaged one? Is that a little "someone"? Is his humanity damaged by his brain?

Are you Hitler's fan?

What is moral rights?

The question is what is a human being or what is a person.

Nervous system is developing from the first weeks and the heart is working from the 25th day after conception. For me there is no doubt that from this day there is a human and as my Church teaches (and I believe) there is a human from the excact moment of conception. The orthodox Church celebrates the conception of holy mother of Jesus Mary, of John the Baptist and Christ himself. We believe that a human being, a person, is body (flesh) and soul. The size and quality of the body doesnt make someone "more" or "less" Human.

Anastasios

Something to think about.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAz-prw_W2A

MindWalk

Yes, you do feel with your brain. You have nerve endings all over your body, and with those, your brain is able to sense when you are being jabbed by a needle in your right arm, or when your left big toe is being tickled, and so on. But you feel with your brain.

(In fact, my view is just a shade different. My view is that your brain gives rise to your thinking and feeling, and that we call that thinking and feeling a "mind," and that you think and feel with your mind. But all of that boils down to brain activity.)

Anastasios

Althought this conversation is out of subject I want to comment that: No you dont feel only with your brain! With your way of thinking you could think with your heart becouse the brain without heart is nothing but the heart without brain is something.

Anyway, the Human is not a "brain". Is much more. A human with half a brain or a "x" percentage of a brain, after for example a stroke, is not less human. Also a retarded is as human as you are. Any body or mental illness doesnt remove your humanity (look http://www.hawking.org.uk/).

An embryo is a small human but still a human.

PS: You have body feelings but you also have mentally or spiritual or emotional etc. feelings. And you also have consciousness.

MindWalk

Without your brain, you have no consciousness. In particular, without your reticular activating system (part of the brain), you have no consciousness.

Half a brain still functions as a brain, yes. But take away the whole brain, and no, you don't still have consciousness, and no, you don't still feel anything.

This is all old news.

Anastasios

OK, this is old news but still out of subject.

No heart too means no human and no consciousness!

The question is what is a human and from what you are writting I consume that you take the brain as the human.

Even with this way of thinking, embryo has a brain so it is a Human.

PS:A brain dead person is still a person. A heart dead person is a dead person.