Do We Have Empirical Demonstration/Confirmation of Abiogenesis? NO

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stephen_33
tbwp10 wrote:

....

So requiring naturalism be "abandoned" is tautological/circular, and is a bit of a 'cheat.' It is a convenient way to insulate oneself from ever having to deal with the evidence (or lack thereof). It's a convenient way to ignore and absolve oneself from having to deal with the "enormous amount of empirical data.... that suggest that it is impossible for *any* non-living chemical system to escape devolution to enter into the Darwinian world of the living." As no "enormous amount of empirical data" will ever be enough. That is fundamentally no different from how no amount of evidence will be enough for YECs, due to their metaphysical commitments. They are both convenient ways to avoid dealing with the scientific evidence.

And plenty of people do that, so you can too, if that's what you want to do.

But surely you can understand if other people don't feel compelled to follow suit. Even though you don't reject it, surely you can appreciate how other people could reject abiogenesis and arrive at the conclusion that something more than nature is needed in light of the "enormous amount of empirical data" that suggest abiogenesis is not possible.

More time today and I did say I'd return to this...

But if you think I was suggesting that "naturalism be "abandoned"", you misunderstood what I meant. I was referring to a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life (OOL), not anything else. Of course if you take the view that giving up hope of ever finding such an explanation for OOL is somehow abandoning naturalism by extension, that's another matter.

The question I ponder is at what point do the very difficult problems surrounding a naturalistic explanation become insuperable? You seem to rule it out (?) in your own thinking and if so, that's your choice but I'll continue to follow what appears to be the thinking of those best qualified to say, in other words the OOL research community.

I'm thinking of that saying 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' and failing to make progress and acknowledging the very considerable hurdles to be overcome isn't quite the same as demonstrating that some alternative explanation is the case. There's space, however small, between pressing on with the search, despite the mountain that needs to be climbed, and stating that no naturalistic explanation is possible.

But let's not fall into the trap of thinking that adopting a wait and see approach is in any way equivalent to those who deny established science?

tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

"We can only say there's a fossil in the ground"--for starters

On a side note you also keep assuming that I'm assuming long ages when what I've talked about is independent of the age "date" of the fossils.

But I would start here....

You need to listen to YEC flood geologist Ken Coulson's video talks. Especially, part 2 where he walks you through his research on stromatolite fossils and the types of questions we can answer just from those fossils.

If you are going to talk about the fossils being in the ground, we agree, if you talk about the different shapes meaning they belong to different creatures we agree. As soon as you talk about something other than the fossils as dates, you are no longer talking about fossils but something else. I owe you two videos I said I would watch, I'll comment on them after I listen.

"What exactly am I wrong about?"

Statements like the above. Saying fossils in the ground are all we know (ridiculous) and you are the one who keeps bringing up the age 'date' of fossils (you don’t seem to have any knowledge of how paleontologists determine the age 'date' of fossils, and what you say is also irrelevant to the patterns in the fossil record I've been describing like YEC flood geologist Ken Coulson's part 2 video on stromatolite fossils, which are true regardless of their age 'date' and dont require any old age or young age assumptions)


Like I said, take some geology and paleontology classes, because you don't know what you're talking about.

You're thinking of 'old school' paleontology. You also seem to be thinking of reconstructions for crypto species and/or incomplete (vertebrate) skeletons. I assume you know that is <1% of the fossil record. I assume you know that most of the fossil record consists of marine invertebrates (not vertebrates) that are complete (whole) fossils.

Modern paleontology is a very sophisticated science, and in many ways more advanced than modern forensic science (we collect a lot more data and have substantially more laboratory analyses available to us). You seem to think that all paleontologists do is dig up 'old bones.' Not even close. (And, in fact, for me personally, I often find the 'ground'--i.e., sedimentology--more fascinating than the fossils themselves). You seem to be thinking of the fossils in isolation to the 'ground' in which they're found. But that's not how paleontology works. We don't just look at the fossils. We look at everything. Modern paleontology includes:

-The fossils themselves. Quantitative mineralogical analysis to tell us the precise chemical composition. This can include microscopy and thin sections).

-Taphonomy: analysis of the 'death and burial' context, which includes documenting things like fossil orientation, fossil abrading or lack thereof, whether it's articulated or disarticulated. (Similar to modern forensics, such things give us data about the conditions and environment of death and burial).

-Sedimentology: a huge part of paleontology is analysis of the sedimentological context in which the fossils are found: the lithology, mineralogy, petrology, sedimentary structures.

-Stratigraphy/Biostratigraphy: mapping the vertical and lateral (geographic) extent of a paleospecies. Vertical and lateral facies changes.

***And the YEC straw man accusation of "old age/evolutionary uniformitarian assumptions" is so 200 years ago. Modern geologists don't assume layers are put down at slow, uniform rates. Today we use highly sophisticated techniques to determine stratigraphic completeness and in paleontology control for sampling bias and preservation bias and more. Modern geologists recognize evidence of both slow and rapid catastrophic deposition as well as when there is evidence of no deposition. This isn't done haphazardly or by creative storytelling or guessing, or "old age" assumptions, but all based on the actual observational evidence at physical field localities.

-Paleoecology: analysis of all of the above and associations of fossils with other types of fossils.

-There are actually only a few places (although it's growing) that issue paleontology degrees, per se. Most paleontologists are geologists who don't simply look at fossils but collect data from the entire 'crime scene' so to speak. There is sooooo much data to collect (more than can be collected in a lifetime).

*So again, you seem to be thinking of fossils in isolation ripped out of context, when that's not how it works. Modern paleontology collects data on *everything* and is not myopically focused on digging up 'old bones' but on putting together an understanding of the entire 'crime scene' environment that starts with the mineralogical composition of the rocks themselves, which provides an enormous amount of data just right there when we're barely out of the gate.

tbwp10
stephen_33 wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

....

So requiring naturalism be "abandoned" is tautological/circular, and is a bit of a 'cheat.' It is a convenient way to insulate oneself from ever having to deal with the evidence (or lack thereof). It's a convenient way to ignore and absolve oneself from having to deal with the "enormous amount of empirical data.... that suggest that it is impossible for *any* non-living chemical system to escape devolution to enter into the Darwinian world of the living." As no "enormous amount of empirical data" will ever be enough. That is fundamentally no different from how no amount of evidence will be enough for YECs, due to their metaphysical commitments. They are both convenient ways to avoid dealing with the scientific evidence.

And plenty of people do that, so you can too, if that's what you want to do.

But surely you can understand if other people don't feel compelled to follow suit. Even though you don't reject it, surely you can appreciate how other people could reject abiogenesis and arrive at the conclusion that something more than nature is needed in light of the "enormous amount of empirical data" that suggest abiogenesis is not possible.

More time today and I did say I'd return to this...

But if you think I was suggesting that "naturalism be "abandoned"", you misunderstood what I meant. I was referring to a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life (OOL), not anything else. Of course if you take the view that giving up hope of ever finding such an explanation for OOL is somehow abandoning naturalism by extension, that's another matter.

The question I ponder is at what point do the very difficult problems surrounding a naturalistic explanation become insuperable? You seem to rule it out (?) in your own thinking and if so, that's your choice but I'll continue to follow what appears to be the thinking of those best qualified to say, in other words the OOL research community.

I'm thinking of that saying 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' and failing to make progress and acknowledging the very considerable hurdles to be overcome isn't quite the same as demonstrating that some alternative explanation is the case. There's space, however small, between pressing on with the search, despite the mountain that needs to be climbed, and stating that no naturalistic explanation is possible.

But let's not fall into the trap of thinking that adopting a wait and see approach is in any way equivalent to those who deny established science?

Science has nothing to do with hope or wait-and-see, but is always a tentative statement based on our current knowledge to date. What scientists personally believe is irrelevant to what our current scientific evidence indicates.

Like I said, your approach is fundamentally no different from how no amount of evidence will be enough for YECs, due to their metaphysical commitments. They are both convenient ways to avoid dealing with the scientific evidence.

And plenty of people do that, so you can too, if that's what you want to do.

But surely you can understand if other people don't feel compelled to follow suit. Even though you don't reject it, surely you can appreciate how other people could reject abiogenesis and arrive at the conclusion that something more than nature is needed in light of the "enormous amount of empirical data" that suggest abiogenesis is not possible.

stephen_33

"They are both convenient ways to avoid dealing with the scientific evidence"

Very well but are you suggesting that such evidence compels us towards just one conclusion and no other? If you are it seems you're being premature because all it tells us is how very difficult the challenge is, not that the challenge is impossible and deserves to be abandoned.

I assume that you similarly take issue with the majority of the reseach community as well?

stephen_33

"Like I said, your approach is fundamentally no different from how no amount of evidence will be enough for YECs, due to their metaphysical commitments. They are both convenient ways to avoid dealing with the scientific evidence"

You are mistaken here. Central to Young Earth Creationism is the firm belief that our planet is no more than 10,000 years old and that it and life itself was brought into existence exactly as described in the Book of Genesis.

Are you seriously suggesting that there's any 'wriggle-room' whatsoever between those beliefs and our scientific understanding of how old the Earth is and the emergence of life and its evolution over gelogical time? Of course not.

By contrast I and (it would seem) the bulk of researchers are reserving judgment on whether a naturalistic explanation for life is possible and that's all. I'm not aware that anything is being ruled out.

The two things are not comparable as far as I'm concerned.

tbwp10

@stephen_33

That's why I qualified with "fundamentally." They're certainly not equivalences. But the end result is the same: they both avoid the force/weight of scientific evidence.

I think the difficulty we're having in our communication relates to two things: (1) the tentative nature of science; and (2) metaphysics... and the need to keep the two separate.

Science carries such weight in society that it's very easy to forget the nature of science and treat "scientific conclusions" as definitive, concrete, set in stone, when they're not, but always tentative, and as a scientist that's how I've been trained to look at it, and to compartmentalize science separate from metaphysics/philosophy.

*So if we're having a scientific discussion, then I will state the scientific evidence to date and what conclusions we can draw. And in the case of the OOL we have "an enormous amount of empirical data" (Tar/Asphalt Paradox) that seems to indicate that abiogenesis is not possible. That is an accurate statement (from the OOL field itself) based on our current scientific evidence and understanding to date (which is all science can ever do).

I am trained to make such a statement independent of and without *any* regard to metaphysics, philosophy, or even personal religious beliefs. We are trained to compartmentalize our science separate from such considerations. 

So in a scientific discussion that's what I start with: a statement of our current scientific understanding based on our amassed scientific evidence to date. And that what we all need to be able to do (if we want to have a scientific discussion). We should *all* be able to compartmentalize and separate metaphysical/philosophical questions from empirical science. Without *any* regard to personal philosophies, beliefs, etc., we should all be able to state the scientific evidence to date is that there is "an enormous amount of empirical data...that suggest that it is impossible for *any* non-living chemical system to escape devolution to enter into the Darwinian world of the living"...if we're trying to have a scientific discussion.  We should all be able to state that as "scientists" with no regard to personal beliefs. Such a statement should be non-controversial. It is an objective statement of current scientific evidence to date (which, once again, is all science can ever do).  

So again, that's where I always start in a scientific discussion. Then, once we've established what we can currently say from the standpoint of science....then and ONLY then can we even begin to consider metaphysical/philosophical questions, and when we do that we see that...

1. The philosophical or religious *belief* that something more than nature is needed for the origin of life is not inconsistent with the scientific evidence (such a belief is NOT a scientific conclusion; it is NOT a conclusion that science can make, but it is still a logical inference supported by our current scientific evidence to date).

2. Scientists' personal beliefs on the subject (including mine) are irrelevant to an objective statement of what science currently tells us. Requiring that we demonstrate it's impossible for there to be a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life is NOT a scientific question that science can prove one way or another. It doesn't change an objective assessment of our current scientific understanding to date.

3. Saying all this doesn't prove theism or disprove naturalism, because again those are NOT scientific questions and science can't prove either one of those metaphysical positions.

*"whether a naturalistic explanation for life is possible" is not really a scientific question, but a metaphysical one. Science can't prove that a naturalistic explanation is NOT possible (and science aside, it's usually not possible to prove a negative proposition even in general). Science can only demonstrate that there *is* a natural explanation (not that there can't be).  And science has not been able to demonstrate a naturalistic explanation for the OOL

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

"We can only say there's a fossil in the ground"--for starters

On a side note you also keep assuming that I'm assuming long ages when what I've talked about is independent of the age "date" of the fossils.

But I would start here....

You need to listen to YEC flood geologist Ken Coulson's video talks. Especially, part 2 where he walks you through his research on stromatolite fossils and the types of questions we can answer just from those fossils.

If you are going to talk about the fossils being in the ground, we agree, if you talk about the different shapes meaning they belong to different creatures we agree. As soon as you talk about something other than the fossils as dates, you are no longer talking about fossils but something else. I owe you two videos I said I would watch, I'll comment on them after I listen.

"What exactly am I wrong about?"

Statements like the above. Saying fossils in the ground are all we know (ridiculous) and you are the one who keeps bringing up the age 'date' of fossils (you don’t seem to have any knowledge of how paleontologists determine the age 'date' of fossils, and what you say is also irrelevant to the patterns in the fossil record I've been describing like YEC flood geologist Ken Coulson's part 2 video on stromatolite fossils, which are true regardless of their age 'date' and dont require any old age or young age assumptions)


Like I said, take some geology and paleontology classes, because you don't know what you're talking about.

You're thinking of 'old school' paleontology. You also seem to be thinking of reconstructions for crypto species and/or incomplete (vertebrate) skeletons. I assume you know that is <1% of the fossil record. I assume you know that most of the fossil record consists of marine invertebrates (not vertebrates) that are complete (whole) fossils.

Modern paleontology is a very sophisticated science, and in many ways more advanced than modern forensic science (we collect a lot more data and have substantially more laboratory analyses available to us). You seem to think that all paleontologists do is dig up 'old bones.' Not even close. (And, in fact, for me personally, I often find the 'ground'--i.e., sedimentology--more fascinating than the fossils themselves). You seem to be thinking of the fossils in isolation to the 'ground' in which they're found. But that's not how paleontology works. We don't just look at the fossils. We look at everything. Modern paleontology includes:

-The fossils themselves. Quantitative mineralogical analysis to tell us the precise chemical composition. This can include microscopy and thin sections).

-Taphonomy: analysis of the 'death and burial' context, which includes documenting things like fossil orientation, fossil abrading or lack thereof, whether it's articulated or disarticulated. (Similar to modern forensics, such things give us data about the conditions and environment of death and burial).

-Sedimentology: a huge part of paleontology is analysis of the sedimentological context in which the fossils are found: the lithology, mineralogy, petrology, sedimentary structures.

-Stratigraphy/Biostratigraphy: mapping the vertical and lateral (geographic) extent of a paleospecies. Vertical and lateral facies changes.

***And the YEC straw man accusation of "old age/evolutionary uniformitarian assumptions" is so 200 years ago. Modern geologists don't assume layers are put down at slow, uniform rates. Today we use highly sophisticated techniques to determine stratigraphic completeness and in paleontology control for sampling bias and preservation bias and more. Modern geologists recognize evidence of both slow and rapid catastrophic deposition as well as when there is evidence of no deposition. This isn't done haphazardly or by creative storytelling or guessing, or "old age" assumptions, but all based on the actual observational evidence at physical field localities.

-Paleoecology: analysis of all of the above and associations of fossils with other types of fossils.

-There are actually only a few places (although it's growing) that issue paleontology degrees, per se. Most paleontologists are geologists who don't simply look at fossils but collect data from the entire 'crime scene' so to speak. There is sooooo much data to collect (more than can be collected in a lifetime).

*So again, you seem to be thinking of fossils in isolation ripped out of context, when that's not how it works. Modern paleontology collects data on *everything* and is not myopically focused on digging up 'old bones' but on putting together an understanding of the entire 'crime scene' environment that starts with the mineralogical composition of the rocks themselves, which provides an enormous amount of data just right there when we're barely out of the gate.

I'm saying that when new never before seen animals without ancestors show up on what everyone says is a different date in the timeline, according to what they think the age of the earth is, that is a brand spanking new abiogenesis event. So this is very problematic, we cannot even account for one let alone a string of them through time. If the alterations are due to earlier lifeforms then the code should make that easy to occur, but it is not, it is hard due to coding for it to be acceptable. I'm going to stop here, I still need to watch your links.

tbwp10

@TruthMuse

Well first you have some misunderstandings about what the fossil record does and doesn't show with respect to 'ancestors'. But secondly, you're jumping the gun here, because I haven't brought up anything about evolution or the age of fossils. I'm still just trying to reach an agreement on what we physically see as we go up through the fossil record. This should be an easy point of agreement that is non-controversial and based simply on the observational facts of the situation like the vertical succession/stacking of reefs and stromatolites in the fossil record. Observational fact: all reefs are not at the bottom of the fossil record but occur throughout the fossil record. We should be able to agree on something like that. I don't see how we can (or how there is any use in) discussing other topics like evolution in the fossil record or the age of fossils if we can't first agree just on what the fossil record physically looks like and what we physically observe such as in terms of the physical order of appearance of different types of organisms in the fossil record (which can be done in a wholly descriptive way based just on what we observe and without any reference to evolution or the age of things. Whether evolution is true or false or the Earth is old or young doesn't change the physical succession/vertical stacking of different groups of organisms that we see in the fossil record).

TruthMuse

You can tell me what it looks like to you.

TruthMuse

Note, a biological change we can call evolution, how much of that can occur while keeping a lifeform alive without disrupting critical systems we don't need a million years to figure out.

tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:

You can tell me what it looks like to you.

You sound like a relativist happy.  Again, not talking about interpretation or subjective views, but what we physically see: what it looks like to everyone. You like to point out that truth is objective, so let's apply that rule: all the different types of reefs and stromatolites we see in the fossil record either appear together at the bottom of the record or they don't, so which is it? YEC flood geologist Ken Coulson physically observed at least 12 layers of stromatolites stacked on top of each other. So that is either an objective fact or he hallucinated it.

Kjvav
stephen_33 wrote:

"Like I said, your approach is fundamentally no different from how no amount of evidence will be enough for YECs, due to their metaphysical commitments. They are both convenient ways to avoid dealing with the scientific evidence"

You are mistaken here. Central to Young Earth Creationism is the firm belief that our planet is no more than 10,000 years old and that it and life itself was brought into existence exactly as described in the Book of Genesis.

Are you seriously suggesting that there's any 'wriggle-room' whatsoever between those beliefs and our scientific understanding of how old the Earth is and the emergence of life and its evolution over gelogical time? Of course not. You're right, Stephen. There isn't.

By contrast I and (it would seem) the bulk of researchers are reserving judgment on whether a naturalistic explanation for life is possible and that's all. I'm not aware that anything is being ruled out.

The two things are not comparable as far as I'm concerned.

 

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

You can tell me what it looks like to you.

You sound like a relativist .  Again, not talking about interpretation or subjective views, but what we physically see: what it looks like to everyone. You like to point out that truth is objective, so let's apply that rule: all the different types of reefs and stromatolites we see in the fossil record either appear together at the bottom of the record or they don't, so which is it? YEC flood geologist Ken Coulson physically observed at least 12 layers of stromatolites stacked on top of each other. So that is either an objective fact or he hallucinated it.

I work in the Tech world, and what it looks like may not be what we think. When one of the software engineers sees a problem they automatically think it's a mechanical issue, while the mechanical team thinks it is a software issue, or everyone blames the new CPU not what they know. We can make grand assumptions, and the closer a foundational point of view our assumptions are, not the superficial ones the greater the harm if we get it wrong causing us to get everything we build on them with to be in error.

I need to stop looking at this board until I take the time to watch your link, sorry my bad!

tbwp10

But when there's a computer in front of your team, you all still agree you're looking at a computer

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:

But when there's a computer in front of your team, you all still agree you're looking at a computer

Yes, causes and effects are the main concern, not much debate on if what we are looking at is a tester, handler, a single socket device, or whatever. When results are in question, something that goes beyond what we are looking at as far as our devices are concerned is what I'm referring to, we can agree we see fossils, but the stories surrounding those fossils there can be a debate.

tbwp10

Again, you're jumping the gun to interpretation ("stories") when we have yet to agree on what we're physically seeing. We either see vertical succession or we don't. How to interpret that is a different question. But if we can't agree that different types of life appear at different points in the fossil record; if we can't agree that the fossil record shows a pattern of physical succession/turnover, then there's no point talking about how best to interpret that succession.

We find different types of stromatolites and reefs that appear in the fossil record that are then replaced by another type on top and then another type on top of that

 

stephen_33

Those rock formations show the growth of reefs in ancient shallow seas year by year I take it?

tbwp10

Essentially, yes 

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:

Again, you're jumping the gun to interpretation ("stories") when we have yet to agree on what we're physically seeing. We either see vertical succession or we don't. How to interpret that is a different question. But if we can't agree that different types of life appear at different points in the fossil record; if we can't agree that the fossil record shows a pattern of physical succession/turnover, then there's no point talking about how best to interpret that succession.

We find different types of stromatolites and reefs that appear in the fossil record that are then replaced by another type on top and then another type on top of that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As soon as you start telling me what I'm looking at and why you are presenting a story if it reflects reality or not doesn't change the fact it is a story.

tbwp10

@TruthMuse, you can't expect @stephen_33 or me (or anyone else) to acknowledge your points if you can't acknowledge a simple fact of reality. All life does not appear at the same level in the fossil record. You already know this to be true, but just refuse to acknowledge it (unless you really do believe that dinosaurs were in the Cambrian as well as birds and mammals and reptiles, and amphibians and flowering plants, and marine ammonites and scleractinian corals and rugose and horn corals and crinoids, and fish and sharks and whales and a whole host of other organisms that are not found in that part of the fossil record). And if you believe that, then you’re just denying reality (or hallucinating). 

No meaningful discussion can be had if people aren't willing to acknowledge basic facts of reality.