EL2012 - Open discussions before starting

This forum is for preparing purposes.

Any questions or issues regarding the upcoming EL2012 can be discussed within this place.

We will keep this forum open till the tourney starts, but lock it as soon as the tourney have started.

Here some issues and suggestions to cover and consider together:

1. Any games for Division 4?
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There've been suggestions about to play games also within the Division 4.
This is not yet implemented into the proposed tournament setup.

Current setup: almost the same for EL2012 as for EL2011, i.e. no games and only tracking the positions on the team match leaderboard. But the three teams in the top of the Divisions are automatically promoted to Division 3 for next season (EL2013)

Optional setup (example): The teams are divided into 3 sub-divisions where within the teams playing against each other (round-robin). The winner of each sub-division is promoted to Division 3 for next season.

I'm also open for other proposals for Division 4.
Anyone able/willing to manage Division 4?

2. Keep or changing the scoring system?
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It seem pretty hard for many to understand the current scoring system, even if it promotes starting up and finish games quickly and also adwarding every single game wins within the matches.

Current setup: Unchanged, i.e. still keep the current scoring system.

Optional setup (example 1): Maybe replace the current scoring system with an improved and more easily understood one, that also including adwarding larger games more than smaller games.

Optional setup (example 2): Maybe only use the current scoring system (or the one in example 1) as a tie-break system instead, and then instead - as traditionally - adwarding wins with 1 point, draws with 0,5, and loss with 0.

3. A more restictive approach against playing for other countries?
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Many teams are represented by players that have applied other flags then they're representing in the tourney. It's difficult to keep track on which teams such single players representing.

Current setup: For EL2012 no changes compared to EL2011. Just a few clarification made, i.e. that a guy that representing several countries loosing his games in the matches he's participating during a season.

Optional setup (example): Disqualification of teams where more than 10% of their players - in general or in single matches - have applied another flag than they are representing. Some dispenses may could be considered for some country teams where several flags are in use officially.

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Any changes have to be covered and agreed before we start next tourney, i.e. by the latest on 8th of January 2012.

However, just simple clarifications can be handled afterwards while the tourney is ongoing when needed.

What if your flag is international?

In any case aren't you allowed to representing/playing for several countries in the EL independently upon what flag you've applied to your profile. No changes of that rule are proposed.

What may are to be considered is an additional restriction that would disqualify teams that having too many players that not have applied the same flag as the country they are representing. The international flag would thereby be counted as any "forreign flag", since that is not the flag that have been applied to the country team profile.

so basically you can't play for two teams.

Not in the EL and WL-games. That is not allowed and have never been it.

There're however, still no restrictions for players to be members of any teams and play for them in other games besides the EL- and WL-tourneys.

Regarding this and the related rules of the tournment posted below:

''Team members are allowed to join different groups and teams but they may represent and play with only one country team in the European League during a season. It is recommended to do it for the Country corresponding to the member profile flag.

If any player(s) were found participating repeatedly in more than one European League matches with different country teams or obviously is cheating, that (those) player(s) might even will get banned from the European League competitions and the teams the player(s) represent will lose the individual games the player(s) have played or playing.''

How do you enforce these rules? Do you make a scan to all players involved in the matches to see if they ever played for more than just one team?

Not in general.

It's up to the involved teams to check this and reporting any suspected cases and reporting it into the proper forum (i.e. in first hand the division forums if it only concerns teams in your own division, or in second hand into the General Complaint&Issue forum if it is a general complaint/issue that may concerns many teams in different divisions. 

Thereafter I (or other tourney admins) check this, and making decisions and adjust the results etc.

Sometimes - of course - happens that I (or other tourney admins) also detecting suspected cases and then initate necissary actions. Mainly due to the fact that I'm also a group leader for a participating team (Team Sweden) and thereby always tracking this in our own games (when it seems necissary).

Sorry I have to confess i never new this I have been playing for two teams I am really really sorry please forgive me but can I still play.

Happy new 2012

I am on for 1 point for win, 0.5 point for draw and tie break if needed

Yes I would prefer Win = 1.0 Draw = 0.5 Lose 0.0 but we could also do It the way the Worlds biggest chess tournements are done Win = 3 Draw = 1 Lose = 0

oldbones, most of the tournaments are with the old rule,: 1, 1/2,0

Yes but the big ones are with the 3 1 0

oldbones, please check the News articles and see how many of the big ones have one system or the other. Furthermore, what does it mean "biggest chess tournaments" ?  Where is the line between big and small ?

Anyway, this is really off-topic, so better not insist here on this one. We can conclude from your first post that you are in favour of either the old 1,1/2,0 system or the new one 3,1,0

it was just a suggestion anyway i prefer  win 1 draw 0.5 lose 0

To make things easier for everyone, I also think it is better the 1 , 0.5 , 0 scoring system.

And I agree with adriano that the ''one Team - one Season'' rule needs better advertising among admins of the teams involved.

Thanks for all input regarding the scoring system.

It seem like none of you've fully considered situations like:
- how to award every single game within the team matches
- how to better awarding teams that have more completed games than teams that do not
- how to award unfinished games in the team matches, but still not as much as already finished ones.

To make a tourney like this a fair business, we need to awarding teams that starting up and finished their games more quickly better than other ones, and also teams that winning more of the games within the matches.

Principly, I would say the 2 points for wins, 1 for tied, 0 for losses make better sense. The current scoring system actually builds on this principle, even if the formula also including the aspect of completeness and share of won points in the team matches. As it is now; the winner of finished team matches always get - what equals to - something between 1 and 2 points, while tied gives 1 point and loss gives something between 0 up to 1 points. Due to incompleteness are the scores reduced even if the unfinished games in the matches are taken in count as well.

I would say that the currently applied scoring system is hard to beat, even if I agree to that it may not always are so easy to understand and follow the calculations made.

However, I've now made some simple modifications of how the match results will be shown when reporting the current results and scores that may make better sense.

Example:

* The column "Status" would tell if the match is unstarted, ongoing, or finished.
* The column "Players" how many players per team that playing in the match.
* The column "Result" means the adjusted current result in the match.
* The column "Complete" would tell the share of games in the team match that are finished
* The column "Score" would tell the current scores due to completeness (i.e. the column "Results" multiplied with kolumn "Complete".).

The adjusted current result would be counted like this: 

* The column "Original" would tell the won points if you looking at the bottom line of the matches.
* The column "Unfinished" would tell how many games in the team match that still are unfinished.
* The column "Correction" would tell which corrections that have been made due to cheating or players that presenting/playing for several countries.
* The column "Current result" would be the same as a shown in the previous table above.

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I'm of course open for proceed these discussions regarding the scoring system, but I would appreciate if you at least could consider:
- How to handle unstarted team matches? Should they be able get more scores than teams that may starting more games?
- How to handle unfinished team matches? Should they be counted as much as completely finsihed matches?
- How to handle unfinished games within the team matches? Should they be awarded as much as already finished games, or not at all?
- How to handle corrections of match results due to cheating or players that participating in several countries?

1. I am asking the colleagues that wrote here their opinion to correct my if I am wrong, but I have the impression that most of the guys posting here do not want the percentage system in place now, but the old fashioned system with only one point for a win, 0,5 for a draw and 0 for the loss, like WL is doing. If I am not mistaken, everybody wants to take into consideration the final score of a match regardless of the win-loss percentage.

2. Johan, I am not sure what do you have in mind while mentioning "How to handle unstarted team matches?" ...    At the end of the competition, all teams should have the same amount of matches. If a match is not starting this means that:
a) either a team refuses to lock because the other team failed to be fair play (players in the roster that played for other countries or they are adjusting the roster in order to have only high rating)
b) or one of the teams is not locking the roster
In both cases the failing team should lose the official game by default: 0-1.

3. We can handle the unfinished matches the Swiss system way, like WL is doing

4. The recalculations are a hot subject and you know that we already discussed it a lot inside WLD. Anyway, I see no problem to recalculate everything only once for each Division, at the end of the last match of that particular Division. I see no point in recalculating it over and over every month.