I think the evidence presented are sufficiently conclusive for EL staff to take necessary measures consistent with competition rules, on how fast it can.
Also, I think that Team Belarus staff should be invited here to express their views on this problem.
I am extremely dissapointed. Here is the google translation of the Team Belarus admin Maxim_Zemchonok post from the match comments:
I would like to once and for all clarify the situation. Firstly, the decision to exclude players from this game is totally on me. We are in the group discussed the initial disposition before the match and came to the decision to exclude 12 players that my was done. Second, the decision was made largely due to ignorance of the rules of the game in the European League. Our team is the first year participating in various tournaments, and I, for one, personally during registration only takes into account what we sends the tournament organizers in the news, that is the time of registration, start, kind of chess and the minimum number. Third, after you have raised this issue to the public, I have written to the organizer of the tournament with a description of the current situation. In response, it received a letter in which we sent to the rules and said so in the future do not, do not even notice our team, and especially no mention of any sanctions. Fourth, I personally refused repeated calls your team because of the previous letter. Finally, please write in Russian, and then we will understand each other exactly.
Are you kidding ?
1. We are grown-ups (aren't we ?) so we should know one of the main rules of human society is that you cannot say you did not knew the law.
2. There is also the common sense rule of READING THE MANUAL before you start using anything.
3. May I understand that Johan already decided NOT TO PUNISH the obvious match fixing???
Please make me understand using an analogy, when you are caught cheating chess.com is just saying to you "hey, do not use software anymore ?". We are using the clear win rule to fight the cheaters, but when we find something on large scale we are closing our eyes ?!?
4. I do not wish to comment on the request of the TB admin to use russian language between us ...
For the record:
55 minutes ago
Я бы хотел раз и навсегда прояснить ситуацию. Во первых, решение по исключению игроков из этой игры лежит полностью на мне. Мы в группе обсудили начальную диспозицию перед матчем и пришли к решению исключить 12 игроков, что мою было сделано. Во вторых, это решение было принято во многом из-за незнания правил игры в Европейской Лиги. Наша команда первый год участвует в различных турнирах и, я, например, лично при регистрации учитываю только то, что нам отсылает организатор турниров в новостях, то есть время регистрации, начала, вид шахмат и минимальное количество. В третьих, после того, как вы подняли этот вопрос на всеобщее обозрение, я написал организатору турнира с описанием сложившейся ситуации. В ответ было получено письмо, в котором нас отослали к правилам и сказали в дальнейшем так не поступать, даже не предупредив нашу команду, а тем более не упоминая об каких-то санкциях. В четвертых, я сам лично отказал повторному вызову вашей команды из-за полученного ранее письма. И последнее, пожалуйста, пишите по-русски и тогда мы друг друга точно поймем.
There is even more ... The SA of Team Belarus proposed to cancel the match and start a new one. Team Moldova SA was open to discussion about this, but the same Belarus admin that "fixed" his team said Team Belarus changed its mind and don't see reasons to start a new game. So he knew what he's done is not right, but didn't want to try to correct it. This is the definition of UNFAIR PLAY and Johan is allowing it.
Dear colleagues, I was contacted by one of your admins, Maxim_Zemchonok, saying that Team Belarus changed its mind and don't see reasons to start a new game. Is this your official position or it is again a missunderstooding in TB management?
3 days ago
Hervasij Vivaha, thank you for the attitude. We welcome your proposal.
Both our teams suffered because of this trick. Team members should play and nobody have the right to exclude them, even if they are beginners or low rated.
I don't know how we technically cancel this match, so I'll ask the EL admin, and come back soon.
3 days ago
Friends!
We have several administrators: for all will not follow!
Proposes to cancel this game and assign a new game!
@Johan,
Last year there was a similar incident related with Team England (http://www.chess.com/groups/forumview/request-of-penalization-for-team-england). Please allow me to post here your own words:
12 months ago · Quote · #43
DECISION:
Team England will get a warning.
AND...besides that are following adjustments of the match result to be applied: 8 points plus to Team Romania, and 8 points minus to Team England.
***
It has never been ok remove players like this in the EL or WL-games.
The rules are clear enough in which kind of removals are allowed.
If a team find that some rules in some way are unclear, please consult in forehand.
Besides the rules are teams expected to follow best practises and good sportmanship. It means that not everything has or could to be explicity expressed in the rules. Sometimes we of course need to interpret or fine-tuning, but removing a lot of players from the matches are definitively not anthing we expect the teams to do.
This was a certain removal, one of them was ok, but the rest was not ok.
I don't want to handle more issues about removals in the matches for this season. Warnings will be given to teams that does, and penalties given at major removals, and if repetead in upcoming matches could even lead to disqualifications.
Team Belarus removed 13 players, only two of them with more than 25% TP. The match is played on 18 boards. PLEASE be consistent in your approach. 11 players for 18 boards match is a major removal. The fact that Team Belarus admin knew he was wrong, but didn't want to correct it, is UNFAIR PLAY made on purpose and NEEDS A SEVERE PUNISHMENT !
Following decisions has been made about this match (Belarus vs Team Moldova):
1/ One warning to Belarus.
2/ Let's startup a new match instead of the old one.
Further disturbance made by the teams could lead to further warnings and disqualifications.
****
Motivation:
- Belarus made wrong by removing mates from their spots without explaining why. It's only allowed to remove mates in special cases, but never without explaining why. Good sportmanship is to do it before removing.
- Belarus therefor get a warning due to the rules.
- the rules not explicitely says more about how to handle a case like this.
- in general we avoide giving penalties. In the past we've had penalty rules, but it has later on been desired to remove it.
- it means that we case-by-case have to desire if any additional punishment are needed.
- as this was a match in the very begin of the season, we must be some patient towards teams and admins. Not all teams and admins are yet fully on track from the very beginning.
- it normally takes some rounds to get most teams and admins fully on track.
- the target is to get as many teams and admins on track rather by getting them aware of that the tourney actually have started then giving penalties right off.
- restarting matches seem to be a fair and smoother method in the early seasons to give make smaller teams get on track.
- but as mentioned; this is something to desire from case to case, as the rules not state exactly how to handle besides giving warnings.
It can sometimes be difficult to prove that players really have been removed. So I believe restarting the match is a reasonable decision in this case, as it gives an opportunity for the teams to make a fair and smooth restart.
I recommend the teams - Team Moldova and Belarus - to not consider these tourney's as any war. Let's be friendly, and be aware of that we running this in order to have fun together.
To make rules as fair and the same for all teams, I think that is very necessary in the near future to make a set of specifically penalties for different deviations from competition rules.
@Johan,
Did you read the last post of the Tam Belarus admin from the EL Notes ? Does it seems that he wants to allow everybody to play ?
DorinN69, you want the next match I will set all the same 18-20 best players and no more? )))
by Maxim_Zemchonok 4 minutes ago
It's not ok to limit the games to specific players or anyway manipulate the troup.
If only the very same players attend once again, then it's seem reasonable consider that the troup has been manipulated.
And there're only a few cases for which admins are allowed to remove any players.
To make rules as fair and the same for all teams, I think that is very necessary in the near future to make a set of specifically penalties for different deviations from competition rules.
Thanks kitty2003. I've added following to the first (#1) comment in this thread:
"The list , as to be covered in the preparation for next season:
- Penalties for various kind of rule violations incl. criteria for that"
**
So, that will be covered and discussed before next season starts.
Yes, it may can be reasonable consider more penalties than just warnings in some cases...for next season (EL2016).
Perhaps the same penalty should be applied as per the precedent.
So the match continues but Moldova get 11 points extra?
Perhaps the same penalty should be applied as per the precedent.
So the match continues but Moldova get 11 points extra?
Yes, I agree, this is a very reasonable suggestion.
Whether one would give 11 extra points to Moldova while subtracting them on the Belarus side,
or equivalently add 22 extra points for Moldova while giving +-0 points on the Belarus side,
would of course just be the same, so of these two, the technically more easily feasible solution can be applied.
I completely disagree. You are inventing new rules, which are not in the current season. At the present time we have to live by the rules that we have. It says on the Prevention, which we got. In the future, the next year I suggest you remove all the talk about the players leave. That difficult monitored should be the rule. Let's play a country with the registration under 200 people. How will you determine how many players have been removed from them, if they then decide? How many points you then they are offering to charge? This will complete confusion. Further, to conduct a survey on the minimum number of players in different leagues. The rules must be such as to be imperceptible.
this case is a clear cheating.
giving warning means there is no penalty.
so in this case, cheat has been forgiven. it's a shame.
Dear Johan
i don't understand why you are trying to make some turn-arounds such as creating a decision board etc.
this case was already decided years ago, during the discussions. we have agreed that removing players is forbidden and will be penalized.
now we see the case happened but it's being forgiven.
Why Johan?
and another weird thing that i don't understand, why did you give warning to Moldova? what did they do to deserve it?
1. There is no new rule here. The "not fixing your roster" rule is very old and the EL and WL competitions took measures against this kind of practices. There are precedents on this matter, precedents that needs to be considered while judging. If I am not mistaken, few teams were even removed from the WL competition for this kind of practices.
2. The present rule of allowing removal of 25% TO players was adopted in order to allow everybody to freely play the national team matches, while taking into consideration the TO aspect and the need to avoid the practice of fixing the roster. If somethng needs to be changed, the 25% margin can be discussed for the next years.
3. The monitoring issue you raised is a false problem. The monitoring are done by each team's admins, not by the EL Director. When one will notice a rule violation, one will notice on the forum. This is how all worked until now.
As my personal side note, I would expected admins TO READ most of the old topics of EL and WL, including the Rules, in order to understand how things are going, before jumping ahead blindly ...
4. Must confess I did not understood rest of your post so I cannot comment more ...
Guys, let us finally understand you. We play only the first season in all leagues and completely unfamiliar with all the rules. Yes, we have removed these players deliberately, that does not hide it. At the first issue we are aware that removed them due to lack of knowledge of all the subtleties of the European League. Even if these players have played in the match, our team would still have been a favorite game. In good analysis bumika seen that kefir1 romadan and we have the right to remove the timeout. Immediately after that, I wrote a letter to the organizer and asked him, as we do in this case further. Initially we were given a warning according to the rules. We agreed with him. By the way, in the future, I propose to create a forum with a black list of commands, which will include all the violations and the possible consequences. Analyze the disposition before the game - we have to win. Knowing this, Doreen and picked up all the noise. That he wants to win dishonestly. After thinking Johan suggested that we make a call to Moldova, which we did. But Dorin it seemed already to small and bypassing all the rules, putting into question the decision of the organizer, he did not accept him, deciding to have to look for a larger mean forfeiture. We fully cooperate with Johan, Doreen yet more and more blows all this noise. Creates an overall impression that Moldova wants to have 2 or more chances to win. If you will lose the current game, here they want to play a new one if there will be no match, then there will talk about the technical defeat. If you act according to the rules, we should only get a warning and all. That it is apparently not much like it. As for the previously incorrect games, we naturally for it have no responsibility - it is a problem of the tournament and only for the next season it can be solved. In those games on technical defeat and it was not, so why do we need at the moment to get it. I think that all questions must be closed by the end of this week. Previously, we would like to 12 March, all solved. If after March 15 will not make a final decision, we will assume that the current match and final. And we warned.
Regards, Max.
I do agree that removing players with 25% TO is OK. Remains the removing of 11 players, thus 11 boards, 2 points per board, 22 points in total. As can be seen, all of their moldavian opponents were listed higher in rating.