European League Open Discussions

For chatting and discussions.

Please help us to keep group notes to a useful and workable minimum.

A huge thank you to johanpalmaer for having built and managed the European League for so many years from 2009 till 2016!

Thank you to Team England's admins who one year ago created the European League Tournament Board and initiated discussions and votings there, and thank you to the admins of the Division 1 teams participating in these discussions and votings! The voting results from there have been used for going forward with this league.

And a big thank you to those who are now putting in their work to make the European League continue into the future! Phoenix_Scorpion is doing invaluable work in many ways, and bumiputra is managing the Teams and Active Admins list.

And last but not least a great thank you to all admins doing great work building their teams and organizing the matches with each other, and to all players in the European League having fun playing in this great event

From a discussion started in the notes, taken here:

• Your questions are too short to be clear, as are probably the answers possible here in the notes. Taking this to the forums.

  by ilmago 5 minutes ago

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  Will the admins be notified before during or after matches start. Just wondering as the uncertainly makes it difficult to know what on earth is going on

  by Taurusmale67 15 minutes ago

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  Please read it exactly, and it will be very clear. The WL has exactly the same place and name for its rules.

  by ilmago 19 minutes ago

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  Yeah, but there are some ambiguities, like the joint match rule (WL can be used as EL, separate matches can be agreed), for newcomers it might be unclear as to which takes precedence (if they are unaware of the new ruling). Just a suggestion, I think the WL has a rules forum somewhere iirc.

  by ThomasJEvans 20 minutes ago

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  Thomas, have you read the very first group note below, and the single only forum thread stickied in the forums?

  by ilmago 49 minutes ago

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  Is there a Rules forum anywhere? Having a set of clear rules will help with any discussions.

  by ThomasJEvans 50 minutes ago

Taurusmale, notified about what? Which uncertainty?

The EL2017 has no strict schedule as the WL2017. Please do not wait for news announcements here for every round. Go ahead and organize your matches with your opponents, without waiting to be prompted about them.

The EL allows for quite some freedom about scheduling matches. Use this freedom to open matches easily when it is nice for both teams within the month, and if desired, happily use the possibility to agree with your opponents to play the match earlier or later than in the month it has been scheduled for.

This has always been this way in the EL, and it will keep being so with the new directors.

• • Your suspicion is wrong and we can discuss it in private anytime you want in order to keep this Notes free

    by DorinN69 115 minutes ago Delete

  • I suspect this is the reason why Johan ended his involvement as he didn't agree with this rule

    by Taurusmale67 2 hours ago Delete

  • Objectively, in this matter, the lack of synergy between the EL rules and the WL rules has caused a dichotomy.

    by KingsWaterman 2 hours ago Delete

  • Dorin there is NO RULE in the World League guide. The admins you referred to left in the summer of 2016 yet no attempt was made to communicate with the current team despite is made clear that new admins were in charge

    by Taurusmale67 2 hours ago Delete

  • Also how come England current admins DID NOT have a vote

    by Taurusmale67 2 hours ago Delete

  • Taurusmale67, the "secretive" European League Board benefited greatly from two very good and active (at that times) admins of Team England. Other than this, indeed since the match is counted first as a WL match and Ukraine wants to play it as a EL as well, I was curious what is the present WL rule. I searched but did not found something explicit (or I missed it, overlook it or something)

    by DorinN69 2 hours ago Delete

  • So WL is not effected ok then in England Serbia WL game we play a single game and then a separate EL game

    by Taurusmale67 2 hours ago Delete

  • Sorry but that is simply not true. WL are not effected anyhow by EL rules. Also, new rules are voted among all 2016 D1 representatives in open discussion and change is done only after stable majority was reached - before start of 2017 EL season.

    by Phoenix_Scorpion 2 hours ago Delete

  • Phoenix show me in The World League Guide where it states you MUST double up matches

    by Taurusmale67 2 hours ago Delete

  • This secretive European League Board voted that European League will be forced to double up with World League games. How can a European Board vote for something that EFFECTS World League games

    by Taurusmale67 2 hours ago Delete

• WL rules allow using doubled matches, I'm not sure how EL rules can affect playing WL matches?

  by Phoenix_Scorpion 2 hours ago Delete

• The changed was brought in after the World League started. Not communicated in any forum and forced upon all teams. The voting took place over a year ago tell me how that is represented of current teams views?

  by Taurusmale67 2 hours ago Delete

• Yeah, but this is EL rule, the match is counting FIRST as WL, so I am not sure why it was headed in the EL notes and what is the WL rule about it.

  by DorinN69 3 hours ago Delete

• Ok - thanks for correction, I have not noticed this change.

  by Dale00007 3 hours ago Delete

• No, from 2017 default setting is to play merged matches. Only if both teams agree, than matches can be played as separate. So if opponent send you request for merged match, yes, you need to accept it.

  by Phoenix_Scorpion 3 hours ago Delete

• Default setting is to play separate match. Only if both teams agree, than match can be merged.

  by Dale00007 3 hours ago Delete

• Please I need help. I am super manager of Team Spain, our rival Ukraine asks us to play a unique match both leagues. Are we required to accept or can we negotiate? Please, That someone responds to me quickly we have 10 days to start the match.

  by Sebass34 4 hours ago Delete

Where does it say EL rules are COMPULSARY for WL matches this is a different competition and therefore has NO JURISDICTION over WL matches.  

EL rules say that WL matches can be used to count for the EL.

I really do not think this is complicated.

Really so if WL "can be" yet EL rules states as a default setting you must accept a double header how does this merge.  You have one rule which states you MUST and then in another league where EL has no juridiction you can decide.  Think this has been badly managed by EL and WL directors

Taurusmale, we are not in the notes here, we easily have the space for complete sentences to avoid any hastyness or misunderstandings by shortened sentences.

Of course the same thing can be said in different wordings. Would you prefer a wording of the same rules that only contains "musts" or "forbiddens"? Isn't it enough for you to read the possibilities that are allowed by the rules, to easily see what is the case?

Please allow me to rephrase as I understood it. WL does not have a rule about this. The match is a WL match. So Team Spain is free to chose NOT to play double match. If the match was EL, than EL rule takes precedence. But this is not the case, is it? So I do not understand why it was required for Team Spain to agree with both matches being unified into one.

Ilmago you have used the word "MUST" to a question from Spain in a World League forum where the rule does not apply.  This is a EL rule which is contradictory and makes for confusion.  I see the case in that i will refuse France request for a double header as the WL rules say we must agree and then I am against EL rules which state as a default setting I must accept the double header.  So what happens if France say they want to play as double header and England don't one rule will interfere with another.  WL & EL have badly manged this rule and now it is causing problems

What should be there to choose? The WL match will be played on schedule.

The WL match will be used for EL because the two opponents did not agree to play a separate match for EL.

So the WL match will end up being used for the EL automatically.

Taurusmale, you seem to be thinking that the header of the match has any influence on whether it will or will not be counted for the EL.

This assumption is wrong, the match can easily be added to EL with just the WL name in its title.

Of course please everyone kindly include also EL2017 in your match titles whenever the match will be counting for both leagues, this will obviously make things easier for all players and organizers involved.

The link in the EL for the England Serbia match needs to be removed immediately Team England DID NOT agree to a double header and Phoenix_Scorpion forced the match as a double header in contradiction to your comments.

Taurusmale, please do not base your requests on misreading our comments.

How am I misreading comments it is the directors that have caused this problem by having a contradictory rule for two different leagues.  My request stands

Such a significant rule change would have been much better served if it had been communicated to group admins, rather than hidden away in a very subtle and ambiguous paragraph in the rules.

This new rule change is bad enough that it only comes to light after play starts, even worse that it wasn't implemented until after play in World League had started.

Subtle and ambiguous paragraphs to describe a new rule change is simply bad implementation.

The offending rule - "World League 2017 matches can be used to count as matches for the European League 2017. Teams can agree to play two separate matches."

There are no compelling statements in this wording, "can" doesn't mean "should" or "must". There is nothing at all obvious about this statement that would compel you to do anything...

gambit-man, do you have a better wording, for saying the same rule in a better way, with nice, short, clean wording?

Dear gambit-man, the modal verb MUST is simlpy hidden between the lines, to be exact, it goes beyond these lines, it just follows:  " ...Teams can agree to play two separate matches.", which simply means that if Teams, both or even just one of them, do not agree/does not agree on playing two separate matches, they MUST play united WL&EL match.