Evidence for creation discussed

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stephen_33 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

I actually still don’t care how old everyone thinks it is. If what we have as a certainty, isn’t, then it should not be talked about as if it were. Things we can know should be front and center, instead of the side issues even if proved don’t answer the big questions.

Can you test or recognize mindlessness or intelligence?

On a scale of confidence I'm more confident that the Universe is very ancient (in the many billions of years) than I am that I'm conversing with you!

You might just as easily be an AI bot as an actual person.

 

That is saying something, and it isn't good.

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stephen_33 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

What conventional understanding do you have for either how everything got here or life began?

Well we were discussing Chesterton's claim that reason is no more than a matter of faith? I don't think that claim is credible because we know our reason can help us to arrive at sound conclusions about all manner of things and I gave the example of solar eclipses to illustrate this.

If reason and the ability to calculate outcomes and make predictions about future events was not reliable, then we'd expect eclipses (for example) to occur other than when they're predicted. I'm not aware of that ever happening - are you?

But I did say before that our reason has certain limits and where evidence is very limited, it's extremely difficult to draw conclusions. That's where we are with the origins of both the Universe and life.

 

You are proving his point, you believe, because, faith is not a, "I believe without cause" type of thing. That verbiage is simply thrown out there for those that put a negative spin on the word.

Avatar of tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

***It feels like we've already been down this road many times before over the past year(s). Continually raising the point doesn't negate my repeated counterpoint: namely, that simply sowing seeds of doubt is not enough. Once again, if you want to persuade people of a given position, then YOU need to propose a better explanation of the evidence and observations.

That may be how you look at it, for me, it is your claiming knowledge you don't have. It's as simple as that, none of us here knows when it all started, we cannot declare when it did start that this is what it looked like, and we know this, because. Yes we can! Take a Physical Cosmology class. Study the observational evidence. Learn about general relativity and the Friedman Equation 

Can one equation describe the history of the universe?

We can make logical deductions and inferences from observations. We can extrapolate backwards based on reasonable assumptions, we can use models to make scientific predictions and test those predictions (like @stephen_33 keeps pointing out, using eclipses as an example)

*Just because we weren't there to see it doesn't mean we can't draw logical conclusions and inferences, based on observational data, and then test them

If you are going to make substantial claims, you should at least have something to back it up with and you don't have that, or do you?

I do! And not just me, it's available to the whole world! Just sign up for an online Physical Cosmology class and you'll learn all about the substantial evidence we have. You can start with something much simpler though: read the link I gave you on the prior page (& the one above)! 

How do we know the universe is 13.8 billion years old?

Avatar of tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:
stephen_33 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

What conventional understanding do you have for either how everything got here or life began?

Well we were discussing Chesterton's claim that reason is no more than a matter of faith? I don't think that claim is credible because we know our reason can help us to arrive at sound conclusions about all manner of things and I gave the example of solar eclipses to illustrate this.

If reason and the ability to calculate outcomes and make predictions about future events was not reliable, then we'd expect eclipses (for example) to occur other than when they're predicted. I'm not aware of that ever happening - are you?

But I did say before that our reason has certain limits and where evidence is very limited, it's extremely difficult to draw conclusions. That's where we are with the origins of both the Universe with the origin of the universe, yes and life with the origin of life, no. The origin of the universe is out of reach for science and can't be directly studied. Life can and everything we know about it tells us that life is not a spontaneous thermodynamic process.

 

You are proving his point, you believe, because, faith is not a, "I believe without cause" type of thing. That verbiage is simply thrown out there for those that put a negative spin on the word. So faith does have reasons/a rational basis? Now you seem to be talking in circles

 

Avatar of tbwp10

The "funny" thing in all this TM is that you ask for substantial evidence, so we direct you to it, but when we ask for substantial evidence, you provide nothing.

Avatar of TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

***It feels like we've already been down this road many times before over the past year(s). Continually raising the point doesn't negate my repeated counterpoint: namely, that simply sowing seeds of doubt is not enough. Once again, if you want to persuade people of a given position, then YOU need to propose a better explanation of the evidence and observations.

That may be how you look at it, for me, it is your claiming knowledge you don't have. It's as simple as that, none of us here knows when it all started, we cannot declare when it did start that this is what it looked like, and we know this, because. Yes we can! Take a Physical Cosmology class. Study the observational evidence. Learn about general relativity and the Friedman Equation 

Can one equation describe the history of the universe?

We can make logical deductions and inferences from observations. We can extrapolate backwards based on reasonable assumptions, we can use models to make scientific predictions and test those predictions (like @stephen_33 keeps pointing out, using eclipses as an example)

*Just because we weren't there to see it doesn't mean we can't draw logical conclusions and inferences, based on observational data, and then test them

If you are going to make substantial claims, you should at least have something to back it up with and you don't have that, or do you?

I do! And not just me, it's available to the whole world! Just sign up for an online Physical Cosmology class and you'll learn all about the substantial evidence we have. You can start with something much simpler though: read the link I gave you on the prior page (& the one above)! 

How do we know the universe is 13.8 billion years old?

As I pointed out, do you know how it started, do you know what it looked like when it began? You start with this is how old it is because of this, as if "because of this" is undisputed and without a doubt true. Well, that is doing math well, granted, but it doesn't mean what you are basing all of your math on is an accurate description of what really occurred.

Avatar of TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:

The "funny" thing in all this TM is that you ask for substantial evidence, so we direct you to it, but when we ask for substantial evidence, you provide nothing.

 

You showed me math if this is what happened, and I'm supposed to go, okay, well then you know, but you don't.

Avatar of tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

***It feels like we've already been down this road many times before over the past year(s). Continually raising the point doesn't negate my repeated counterpoint: namely, that simply sowing seeds of doubt is not enough. Once again, if you want to persuade people of a given position, then YOU need to propose a better explanation of the evidence and observations.

That may be how you look at it, for me, it is your claiming knowledge you don't have. It's as simple as that, none of us here knows when it all started, we cannot declare when it did start that this is what it looked like, and we know this, because. Yes we can! Take a Physical Cosmology class. Study the observational evidence. Learn about general relativity and the Friedman Equation 

Can one equation describe the history of the universe?

We can make logical deductions and inferences from observations. We can extrapolate backwards based on reasonable assumptions, we can use models to make scientific predictions and test those predictions (like @stephen_33 keeps pointing out, using eclipses as an example)

*Just because we weren't there to see it doesn't mean we can't draw logical conclusions and inferences, based on observational data, and then test them

If you are going to make substantial claims, you should at least have something to back it up with and you don't have that, or do you?

I do! And not just me, it's available to the whole world! Just sign up for an online Physical Cosmology class and you'll learn all about the substantial evidence we have. You can start with something much simpler though: read the link I gave you on the prior page (& the one above)! 

How do we know the universe is 13.8 billion years old?

As I pointed out, do you know how it started, do you know what it looked like when it began? You start with this is how old it is because of this, as if "because of this" is undisputed and without a doubt true. Well, that is doing math well, granted, but it doesn't mean what you are basing all of your math on is an accurate description of what really occurred.

You obviously didn't read the entire article where it discusses the underlying assumptions and testing of those assumptions 

Avatar of TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

***It feels like we've already been down this road many times before over the past year(s). Continually raising the point doesn't negate my repeated counterpoint: namely, that simply sowing seeds of doubt is not enough. Once again, if you want to persuade people of a given position, then YOU need to propose a better explanation of the evidence and observations.

That may be how you look at it, for me, it is your claiming knowledge you don't have. It's as simple as that, none of us here knows when it all started, we cannot declare when it did start that this is what it looked like, and we know this, because. Yes we can! Take a Physical Cosmology class. Study the observational evidence. Learn about general relativity and the Friedman Equation 

Can one equation describe the history of the universe?

We can make logical deductions and inferences from observations. We can extrapolate backwards based on reasonable assumptions, we can use models to make scientific predictions and test those predictions (like @stephen_33 keeps pointing out, using eclipses as an example)

*Just because we weren't there to see it doesn't mean we can't draw logical conclusions and inferences, based on observational data, and then test them

If you are going to make substantial claims, you should at least have something to back it up with and you don't have that, or do you?

I do! And not just me, it's available to the whole world! Just sign up for an online Physical Cosmology class and you'll learn all about the substantial evidence we have. You can start with something much simpler though: read the link I gave you on the prior page (& the one above)! 

How do we know the universe is 13.8 billion years old?

As I pointed out, do you know how it started, do you know what it looked like when it began? You start with this is how old it is because of this, as if "because of this" is undisputed and without a doubt true. Well, that is doing math well, granted, but it doesn't mean what you are basing all of your math on is an accurate description of what really occurred.

You obviously didn't read the entire article where it discusses the underlying assumptions and testing of those assumptions 

I believe the key word in all of this is "assumptions".

Avatar of tbwp10

No, the "testing" of those assumptions. Everything has starting assumptions. They're unavoidable.  The question is whether given assumptions are reasonable. Again, you haven't read the entire article, or you would already know because it discusses this

Avatar of TruthMuse

It goes on about how far back it started and how they are measuring it, well, okay, they think the measurements take them to where they think it started, does it, do you know how it started and if those assumptions are correct?

Avatar of tbwp10

The articles answer your questions 

Avatar of stephen_33
TruthMuse wrote:

You are proving his point, you believe, because, faith is not a, "I believe without cause" type of thing. That verbiage is simply thrown out there for those that put a negative spin on the word.

I'm losing track of what you're saying - in what way am I "proving his [Chesterton's] point"?

I accept that by applying reason to observation we can reveal all manner of matters of fact about the way the natural Universe functions. But this is a process driven by the available evidence, not something in which I choose to believe in the absence of evidence.

I get the sense more and more that you know nothing about the way science works or the work that scientists carry out?

Avatar of TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:

The articles answer your questions 

I'm not asking any questions, I'm simply saying that there are a lot of assumptions at the foundation of all that if untrue destroys the whole thing, and if you want to trust that, trust it, put your faith in it. We cannot say this is what brought the universe into being, and this is what it looked like when it started, due to science, but you think we can know that, fine, trust that.

Arguing time is going to change anything, I'll grant you all the time you want, what was it that started all life and the universe and continues both, if you think time solves problems it isn't the amount of time that matters, it is timing.

Avatar of TruthMuse
stephen_33 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

You are proving his point, you believe, because, faith is not a, "I believe without cause" type of thing. That verbiage is simply thrown out there for those that put a negative spin on the word.

I'm losing track of what you're saying - in what way am I "proving his [Chesterton's] point"?

I accept that by applying reason to observation we can reveal all manner of matters of fact about the way the natural Universe functions. But this is a process driven by the available evidence, not something in which I choose to believe in the absence of evidence.

I get the sense more and more that you know nothing about the way science works or the work that scientists carry out?

Faith is trust, it is putting whatever it is you are trusting in a place that says it is reliable. Reasoning about the universe is saying many things, one reasoning does what we think, and another that the universe is intelligently understandable, not typically something said about product of a mindless product.

Avatar of tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

The articles answer your questions 

I'm not asking any questions, I'm simply saying that there are a lot of assumptions at the foundation of all that if untrue destroys the whole thing, and I keep telling you to read the article which addresses this and if you want to trust that, trust it, put your faith in it. We cannot say this is what brought the universe into being, and we're back to this....you seem to think the Big Bang Theory claims to answer this when it doesn't, that is a metaphysical question outside the realm of science. The standard Big Bang model explains the physical observational evidence we see in the universe, it doesn't tell us what brought the universe into existence is what it looked like when it started, due to science, but you think we can know that, fine, trust that. no, you keep switching back and forth and seem to be confusing cause with effect. The Big Bang Theory doesn't make any statements about who or what caused the universe, it only studies the resulting effects of that cause. That's all science can do. Science is not anti-God.

Arguing time is going to change anything, I'll grant you all the time you want, and back to your YEC talking point that no one brought up what was it that started all life  and the universe and continues both, if you think time solves problems it isn't the amount of time that matters, it is timing. sometimes I think you're having a conversation with yourself....no one thinks time 'solves' anything. Scientists think the universe is 13.8 billion years old because that's what the evidence indicates, not because they "need" time to solve anything (scientists used to think the universe was up to 100 billion years old!). Beyond tired and bored with this standard YEC talking point that falsely mischaracterizes science....

Take classes in physical cosmology, paleontology, geology.....You need to become more learned on the subjects. Your continued insistence that we can't know and don't have any basis for this or that while denying the body of knowledge we've amassed and continually refusing to study in depth the subjects you criticize remains weak and unconvincing. 

We've been down this road before-- where you make these false assertions about scientific fields you've never studied in depth while shutting your eyes to the evidence amassed in those fields....

The only way to maintain your fiction and mischaracterization of these scientific fields is to stay uneducated about them. Why you think this is a persuasive argument is baffling. Well it's not persuasive to anyone else. 

***And you don't see how inconsistent you are: you argue that we can't make logical inferences because no one was there to witness the origin of the universe (which is not what the BBT is about), after you initially tried to argue by inference for ID.

***You can't use logical inference when it suits you and then reject logical inference when others use it

Avatar of tbwp10
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
stephen_33 wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

The eight evidences remind me of similar arguments by Craig, Antony Flew, and others on things like the origin of the universe, fine-tuning, origin of life, design in biology, consciousness, morality, etc.

In the video, he focuses on the fine-tuning argument. He quotes/references cosmologists and philosophers, including Paul Davies, Laurence Krause, Alan Guth, and Antony Flew.

So essentially just a rehash of old arguments for divine creation? Anything at all that's fresh in his approach?

Evidence discussed from a perspective of someone whose life work is collecting evidence.

There is an inconsistency with your argument, though. You are willing to accept forensic science as valid, legitimate scientific evidence when it seems to suit you (like here), but reject it when it doesn't (like with paleontology). Paleontology employs the same type of reasoning and evidence gathering that forensics does.

Let's jump back to page 4 where I made this same point.

Your entire op is predicated on "evidence for creation" based on inferences from evidence left from events no one witnessed, basically using a forensics approach--that's the approach of this forensic scientist video you wanted us to watch.

So you start out arguing by *reason* that there is "forensic evidence" for creation that allows us to reason by inference from the evidence to a creator, and now you've switched back to doubt and denialism about what we can know and that reason is just like faith and that no one can know anything???

I get whiplash from all this back and forth switch-a-roo-ing

Avatar of tbwp10

***SUMMARY: The 'progress' made in this OP can now be summarized as follows: The "evidence for creation" is based on "reason" that is "faith"

Avatar of hellodebake

Can we say the same about dinosaurs written in the book of Job, tbwp?  

Avatar of tbwp10

?