The truth is the introduction of death was at the fall of man, you suggesting well maybe it was there and not written about is a real reach. Have you heard of the term systematic theology?
Evolution is not the real problem creationists have with evolution
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Kjvav wrote:
Romans 8 says the Creation (the whole Creation), not the ground or mankind. It includes the whole creation, even animals.
You're right, it does say the creation and does not limit to one particular aspect of it (like the ground). My reference to God cursing the ground was an attempt to provide the most favorable reading of Romans 8 in positive support of what you stated when you wrote:
"chapter 8 completely backs up the teaching that the whole creation was placed under the curse of sin (death) at the fall of Adam, and awaits the redemption . See Romans 8:18-23."
But in point of fact, Romans 8:20-21 does not refer to God's curse of the ground. In fact, it doesn't speak of any curse at all. So it actually doesn't 'completely back up the teaching that the whole creation "was placed under the curse of sin (death) at the fall of Adam." There is actually no mention of 'curse', 'sin', 'death' or 'fall of Adam' at all.
Rather, Romans 8:20-21 says creation was subjected to 'frustration'/'vanity'/'futility' and that 'the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay/corruption and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.'
It is not entirely clear what Paul means, but from the context that creation will be freed from slavery to decay/corruption when the children of God are similarly liberated from slavery at the end time glorification when we receive incorruptible resurrection bodies; some think what is being pictured is creation's liberation from being a 'graveyard' for humanity's dead; freed from this bondage to decay/corruption with the end time resurrection from the dead.
I'm not sure. As said it's not entirely clear what Paul means. It certainly is not a clear-cut statement that death came to everything in creation (*even the suggestion itself is not entirely coherent because everyone agrees plants were already dying prior to the fall since they were a food source for animals).
TruthMuse wrote:
The truth is the introduction of death of humans was at the fall of man, only death being a consequence to humanity because of sin (which animals can't do) and not just physical death but a spiritual death as well (which animals can't undergo) as indicated by the fact Adam & Eve didn't physically die the same day they disobeyed as God said they would, showing it's more than just physical, biological death that's at issue
you suggesting well maybe it was there and not written about is a real reach. I never suggested anything of the sort. I have repeatedly said that Scripture is not clear one way or the other with regard to *non-human* death, but simply silent on the issue, which is true. The focus is on human death, not non-human death. Have you heard of the term systematic theology?
In fact, at least one passage suggests that God's creation on the fourth day of sun and moon to mark times and seasons included God's appointment of darkness for nocturnal predators to hunt their prey which is their 'food from God'; suggesting predator-prey behavior in the animal kingdom was part of God's created order and provision of food from the very beginning:
Psalm 104:19-28
19 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God. 22 When the sun rises they withdraw and lie down in their dens. 23 Man goes forth to his work and to his labor until evening. 24 O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; the earth is full of Your possessions … 27 They all wait for You to give them their food in due season. 28 You give to them, they gather it up; You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.
Apr 4, 2021
0
#67
tbwp10 wrote:
Kjvav wrote:
Romans 8 says the Creation (the whole Creation), not the ground or mankind. It includes the whole creation, even animals.
You're right, it does say the creation and does not limit to one particular aspect of it (like the ground). My reference to God cursing the ground was an attempt to provide the most favorable reading of Romans 8 in positive support of what you stated when you wrote:
"chapter 8 completely backs up the teaching that the whole creation was placed under the curse of sin (death) at the fall of Adam, and awaits the redemption . See Romans 8:18-23."
But in point of fact, Romans 8:20-21 does not refer to God's curse of the ground. In fact, it doesn't speak of any curse at all. So it actually doesn't 'completely back up the teaching that the whole creation "was placed under the curse of sin (death) at the fall of Adam." There is actually no mention of 'curse', 'sin', 'death' or 'fall of Adam' at all.
Rather, Romans 8:20-21 says creation was subjected to 'frustration'/'vanity'/'futility' and that 'the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay/corruption and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.'
It is not entirely clear what Paul means, but from the context that creation will be freed from slavery to decay/corruption when the children of God are similarly liberated from slavery at the end time glorification when we receive incorruptible resurrection bodies; some think what is being pictured is creation's liberation from being a 'graveyard' for humanity's dead; freed from this bondage to decay/corruption with the end time resurrection from the dead.
I'm not sure. As said it's not entirely clear what Paul means. It certainly is not a clear-cut statement that death came to everything in creation (*even the suggestion itself is not entirely coherent because everyone agrees plants were already dying prior to the fall since they were a food source for animals).
To say that Romans 8:18-23 makes no mention of “curse”, “sin”, “death”, or “fall of Adam” and therefore conclude that is is not clearly referring to the curse of sin placed on Creation as a result of Adam’s sin is what I like to refer to as “Point and Click Studying”. Quickie word searches do not a study make and to note an absence of some desired words in an effort to make a desired point is to do an injustice to the Scriptures. If you will start in Romans 8:1 and read through to the passage we are speaking of you can clearly see that the Creation and we ourselves are groaning under the curse of Genesis 3. The sin of Adam and the result is the point of the passage. Any other conclusion is grasping at straws.
Apr 4, 2021
0
#68
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
The truth is the introduction of death of humans was at the fall of man, only death being a consequence to humanity because of sin (which animals can't do) and not just physical death but a spiritual death as well (which animals can't undergo) as indicated by the fact Adam & Eve didn't physically die the same day they disobeyed as God said they would, showing it's more than just physical, biological death that's at issue
you suggesting well maybe it was there and not written about is a real reach. I never suggested anything of the sort. I have repeatedly said that Scripture is not clear one way or the other with regard to *non-human* death, but simply silent on the issue, which is true. The focus is on human death, not non-human death. Have you heard of the term systematic theology?
In fact, at least one passage suggests that God's creation on the fourth day of sun and moon to mark times and seasons included God's appointment of darkness for nocturnal predators to hunt their prey which is their 'food from God'; suggesting predator-prey behavior in the animal kingdom was part of God's created order and provision of food from the very beginning:
Psalm 104:19-28
19 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God. 22 When the sun rises they withdraw and lie down in their dens. 23 Man goes forth to his work and to his labor until evening. 24 O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; the earth is full of Your possessions … 27 They all wait for You to give them their food in due season. 28 You give to them, they gather it up; You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.
There is nothing in that passage to suggest it refers to pre-fall hunting.
Apr 4, 2021
0
#69
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
The truth is the introduction of death of humans was at the fall of man, only death being a consequence to humanity because of sin (which animals can't do) and not just physical death but a spiritual death as well (which animals can't undergo) as indicated by the fact Adam & Eve didn't physically die the same day they disobeyed as God said they would, showing it's more than just physical, biological death that's at issue
you suggesting well maybe it was there and not written about is a real reach. I never suggested anything of the sort. I have repeatedly said that Scripture is not clear one way or the other with regard to *non-human* death, but simply silent on the issue, which is true. The focus is on human death, not non-human death. Have you heard of the term systematic theology?
In fact, at least one passage suggests that God's creation on the fourth day of sun and moon to mark times and seasons included God's appointment of darkness for nocturnal predators to hunt their prey which is their 'food from God'; suggesting predator-prey behavior in the animal kingdom was part of God's created order and provision of food from the very beginning:
Psalm 104:19-28
19 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God. 22 When the sun rises they withdraw and lie down in their dens. 23 Man goes forth to his work and to his labor until evening. 24 O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; the earth is full of Your possessions … 27 They all wait for You to give them their food in due season. 28 You give to them, they gather it up; You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.
I don't believe there was predator-prey behavior before the fall; you are again reading into the text more than what is there. Before the fall of man, we don't see that type of behavior; at the end, when all things are restored, we will see a world where the lion and lamb will lay down together, even the snakes will be safe. A world restored, in my opinion, would reflect what it should have looked like in the beginning, while times and seasons are not required for hunting and killing, simply a marking of time.
Apr 4, 2021
0
#70
That’s actually a very solid point .... the restoration of the Creation being a mimic of the original.
This is a good discussion gentlemen. I'll have to respond later. In the mean time, Happy Easter and blessings to you and your families.
Kjvav wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:
Kjvav wrote:
Romans 8 says the Creation (the whole Creation), not the ground or mankind. It includes the whole creation, even animals.
You're right, it does say the creation and does not limit to one particular aspect of it (like the ground). My reference to God cursing the ground was an attempt to provide the most favorable reading of Romans 8 in positive support of what you stated when you wrote:
"chapter 8 completely backs up the teaching that the whole creation was placed under the curse of sin (death) at the fall of Adam, and awaits the redemption . See Romans 8:18-23."
But in point of fact, Romans 8:20-21 does not refer to God's curse of the ground. In fact, it doesn't speak of any curse at all. So it actually doesn't 'completely back up the teaching that the whole creation "was placed under the curse of sin (death) at the fall of Adam." There is actually no mention of 'curse', 'sin', 'death' or 'fall of Adam' at all.
Rather, Romans 8:20-21 says creation was subjected to 'frustration'/'vanity'/'futility' and that 'the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay/corruption and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.'
It is not entirely clear what Paul means, but from the context that creation will be freed from slavery to decay/corruption when the children of God are similarly liberated from slavery at the end time glorification when we receive incorruptible resurrection bodies; some think what is being pictured is creation's liberation from being a 'graveyard' for humanity's dead; freed from this bondage to decay/corruption with the end time resurrection from the dead.
I'm not sure. As said it's not entirely clear what Paul means. It certainly is not a clear-cut statement that death came to everything in creation (*even the suggestion itself is not entirely coherent because everyone agrees plants were already dying prior to the fall since they were a food source for animals).
To say that Romans 8:18-23 makes no mention of “curse”, “sin”, “death”, or “fall of Adam” and therefore conclude that is is not clearly referring to the curse of sin placed on Creation as a result of Adam’s sin is what I like to refer to as “Point and Click Studying”. Quickie word searches do not a study make and to note an absence of some desired words in an effort to make a desired point is to do an injustice to the Scriptures. If you will start in Romans 8:1 and read through to the passage we are speaking of you can clearly see that the Creation and we ourselves are groaning under the curse of Genesis 3. The sin of Adam and the result is the point of the passage. Any other conclusion is grasping at straws.
Let's expand even further than Romans 8:1-23. Where in the entire chapter of Romans 8 does it *clearly teach* (and 'completely back up') that 'the whole creation was placed under the curse of sin (death) at the fall of Adam'?
Kjvav wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
The truth is the introduction of death of humans was at the fall of man, only death being a consequence to humanity because of sin (which animals can't do) and not just physical death but a spiritual death as well (which animals can't undergo) as indicated by the fact Adam & Eve didn't physically die the same day they disobeyed as God said they would, showing it's more than just physical, biological death that's at issue
you suggesting well maybe it was there and not written about is a real reach. I never suggested anything of the sort. I have repeatedly said that Scripture is not clear one way or the other with regard to *non-human* death, but simply silent on the issue, which is true. The focus is on human death, not non-human death. Have you heard of the term systematic theology?
In fact, at least one passage suggests that God's creation on the fourth day of sun and moon to mark times and seasons included God's appointment of darkness for nocturnal predators to hunt their prey which is their 'food from God'; suggesting predator-prey behavior in the animal kingdom was part of God's created order and provision of food from the very beginning:
Psalm 104:19-28
19 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God. 22 When the sun rises they withdraw and lie down in their dens. 23 Man goes forth to his work and to his labor until evening. 24 O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; the earth is full of Your possessions … 27 They all wait for You to give them their food in due season. 28 You give to them, they gather it up; You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.
There is nothing in that passage to suggest it refers to pre-fall hunting.
Does Psalm 104 teach that predation is a 'bad' thing--an abnormal, degenerate, corruption of God's originally good creation due to the fall, or does it instead seem to portray predation as a normal part of God's established, ordered creation and divine provision, one of God's 'many works'?
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
The truth is the introduction of death of humans was at the fall of man, only death being a consequence to humanity because of sin (which animals can't do) and not just physical death but a spiritual death as well (which animals can't undergo) as indicated by the fact Adam & Eve didn't physically die the same day they disobeyed as God said they would, showing it's more than just physical, biological death that's at issue
you suggesting well maybe it was there and not written about is a real reach. I never suggested anything of the sort. I have repeatedly said that Scripture is not clear one way or the other with regard to *non-human* death, but simply silent on the issue, which is true. The focus is on human death, not non-human death. Have you heard of the term systematic theology?
In fact, at least one passage suggests that God's creation on the fourth day of sun and moon to mark times and seasons included God's appointment of darkness for nocturnal predators to hunt their prey which is their 'food from God'; suggesting predator-prey behavior in the animal kingdom was part of God's created order and provision of food from the very beginning:
Psalm 104:19-28
19 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God. 22 When the sun rises they withdraw and lie down in their dens. 23 Man goes forth to his work and to his labor until evening. 24 O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; the earth is full of Your possessions … 27 They all wait for You to give them their food in due season. 28 You give to them, they gather it up; You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.
I don't believe there was predator-prey behavior before the fall; you are again reading into the text more than what is there. Before the fall of man, we don't see that type of behavior; at the end, when all things are restored, we will see a world where the lion and lamb will lay down together, even the snakes will be safe. A world restored, in my opinion, would reflect what it should have looked like in the beginning, while times and seasons are not required for hunting and killing, simply a marking of time.
Regarding the passages in Isaiah 11 & 65 to which you refer that depict peaceful coexistence of the lion and lamb in the future end-times, does either passage actually state that this future state of things represents a 'return' to or 'restoration' of God's original creation, or does it instead say that this future state of things will be a 'new heaven and a new earth' that God creates? (See, for example, Is. 65:17)
Apr 5, 2021
0
#76
tbwp10 wrote:
Kjvav wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
The truth is the introduction of death of humans was at the fall of man, only death being a consequence to humanity because of sin (which animals can't do) and not just physical death but a spiritual death as well (which animals can't undergo) as indicated by the fact Adam & Eve didn't physically die the same day they disobeyed as God said they would, showing it's more than just physical, biological death that's at issue
you suggesting well maybe it was there and not written about is a real reach. I never suggested anything of the sort. I have repeatedly said that Scripture is not clear one way or the other with regard to *non-human* death, but simply silent on the issue, which is true. The focus is on human death, not non-human death. Have you heard of the term systematic theology?
In fact, at least one passage suggests that God's creation on the fourth day of sun and moon to mark times and seasons included God's appointment of darkness for nocturnal predators to hunt their prey which is their 'food from God'; suggesting predator-prey behavior in the animal kingdom was part of God's created order and provision of food from the very beginning:
Psalm 104:19-28
19 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God. 22 When the sun rises they withdraw and lie down in their dens. 23 Man goes forth to his work and to his labor until evening. 24 O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; the earth is full of Your possessions … 27 They all wait for You to give them their food in due season. 28 You give to them, they gather it up; You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.
There is nothing in that passage to suggest it refers to pre-fall hunting.
Does Psalm 104 teach that predation is a 'bad' thing--an abnormal, degenerate, corruption of God's originally good creation due to the fall, or does it instead seem to portray predation as a normal part of God's established, ordered creation and divine provision, one of God's 'many works'?
If this passage doesn’t portray hunting as bad, does that support your argument at all?
Psalm 104 portrays predation as a normal part of God's established, ordered creation; not as an aberration, degeneracy, distortion or corruption of God's original creation (due to the fall or otherwise)
Apr 5, 2021
0
#78
The book of Isaiah does the same with rain and snow, which didn’t exist pre-fall. Your point is an unfounded assumption.
Actually, no rain or snow pre-fall is an assumption (that even some YEC organizations dispute like AIG), whereas my point is a factual statement about what Psalm 104 portrays. Psalm 104 quite clearly portrays predation as a normal part of God's established, ordered creation. There is no hint of negativity or portrayal that predation in any way represents an aberration, degeneracy, distortion, 'fallen state', or corruption of God's original creation.
Apr 5, 2021
0
#80
Just because you see something clearly portrayed as part of the norm, that doesn't mean it became the norm at some point after the beginning or later on. Eating meat was clearly given the okay by God; it doesn't mean it was always so at the beginning. It would help if you had a reference that gives a clear specific point in time to prove your point.
Romans 8 says the Creation (the whole Creation), not the ground or mankind. It includes the whole creation, even animals.