Giants in Genesis 6

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Kjvav

The clearest supportive evidence is the evidence you refuse to accept, that is that in the passage we are talking about these “sons of God” are held in contrast to humans, because they are not human.

 

wsswan

Nephilim are something that should have been wiped out from a global flood. The giants must have had some of their mutation through genetics go through Noah's family. Otherwise a similar mutation occurred after the flood. Somehow the Nephilim seem to have survived the flood or reappeared.

MainframeSupertasker

True Sam. All flesh perished in the flood. Noah didn't carry fish. They were in the water. Every fish kind was. Some kinds got extinct. Maybe these weird Nephilim had dragon shaped water features which helped them survive in the flood. 

Sam, you're telling Mr that I have Nephilim DNA???

LOL

MainframeSupertasker

Another useless thing to note is that they were men of great reputation. Powerful. Gigantic. 

wsswan

I don't know about Nephilim DNA but according to the Bible indication they are probably genetic just like Andrea the Giant!

MGleason
Kjvav wrote:

The clearest supportive evidence is the evidence you refuse to accept, that is that in the passage we are talking about these “sons of God” are held in contrast to humans, because they are not human.

 

The "sons of God" are contrasted with the "daughters of men".  Neither of these terms are defined in this passage.

Scripture is full of cases where it compares and contrasts God's people and those who reject God.  It is not inconsistent with the text of this passage to think that this is one such case.  This passage, on its own, does not prove such a reading.  But neither does it, on its own, disprove it.

MainframeSupertasker

Yep. It doesn't really prove that they are different entities. It does seem more plausible to believe that they are contrasted entities. 

MGleason

Demons are spiritual beings.  Demons copulating with humans would not produce giants any more than horses mating with cows would produce a horse-cow hybrid - you need to have two creatures of the same kind.  Horses and cows are not of the same kind (unlike horses and zebras, which clearly are both descended from an original horse-like creature that God made).  Humans and angels are not of the same created kind.  We are physical beings.  Demons are not physical beings and have no DNA to pass on.

Therefore, demons wouldn't even have the ability to copulate with humans unless they take on human flesh.  They would need to become incarnate.  That significantly detracts from the unprecedented miracle of the Incarnation, where the Son of God took on human flesh.  It turns that into something that Satan has already done.

The alternative is that the demons merely appeared to be human, faked the sexual activity, and then miraculously created life in the womb of these women.  Again, the theological implications of that are extremely problematic.  For one, God alone is the giver of life.  God alone is the creator.  For another, it means the virgin birth is also merely a copy of something Satan has already done - again, significantly undermining the Incarnation.

If the text absolutely irrefutably proved that this was really what happened, we would be forced to accept the theological implications of that.  But, while the text would fit with that interpretation, it does not require it.  And so the significantly problematic theological implications of that interpretation should cause us to seriously question that view, and to prefer a view that does not have those extremely problematic theological issues.

Kjvav

1) you know all the abilities of demons? Is there a passage that tells you these things?

2) you are inserting the implications. They are your opinion of answers to theological questions the Scriptures do not bring up

3) I’m not at all comfortable deciding what a Scripture means based on what “interpretation“ I would “prefer”.

MGleason

1) We know that demons are spiritual beings, not physical beings.  We know they can do what Scripture tells us they can do or records them doing.  We know that they desire to do evil.  We know they are powerful.  But we also know that there are limits on their power.  We don't know the exact details of these limits, but we can make educated guesses in some areas, and we are specifically told that God alone is the creator.

2) I am not inventing those implications.  They are the practical workings out of the idea.  If Genesis 6 is describing demons copulating with humans, then either those demons actually fully took on human flesh (in which case the resulting offspring should simply be human), or they merely appeared to take on a human form, faked the sexual activity, and then miraculously created life in the womb.  Either way, they pre-empted one of the key miracles of the incarnation.  I didn't invent that; that is simply the case if we follow the idea through to its logical conclusion.

3. We don't choose an interpretation based on what we "prefer".  But if an interpretation has seriously problematic theological implications, we'd better re-examine the passage to make sure we have that interpretation right.  And if the text is consistent with the problematic interpretation but does not actually require it, that interpretation is almost certainly wrong.

wsswan

What about Cro-Magnon man was still around and they interbred and produced sterile giants like ligers? Just something to think about. I do know female ligers can be fertile but mules are not.

MainframeSupertasker

How tall were they Sam?

wsswan

7-8 ft

Kjvav
wsswan wrote:

7-8 ft

You know this how?

x-9140319185
MGleason wrote:

1) We know that demons are spiritual beings, not physical beings.  We know they can do what Scripture tells us they can do or records them doing.  We know that they desire to do evil.  We know they are powerful.  But we also know that there are limits on their power.  We don't know the exact details of these limits, but we can make educated guesses in some areas, and we are specifically told that God alone is the creator.

2) I am not inventing those implications.  They are the practical workings out of the idea.  If Genesis 6 is describing demons copulating with humans, then either those demons actually fully took on human flesh (in which case the resulting offspring should simply be human), or they merely appeared to take on a human form, faked the sexual activity, and then miraculously created life in the womb.  Either way, they pre-empted one of the key miracles of the incarnation.  I didn't invent that; that is simply the case if we follow the idea through to its logical conclusion.

3. We don't choose an interpretation based on what we "prefer".  But if an interpretation has seriously problematic theological implications, we'd better re-examine the passage to make sure we have that interpretation right.  And if the text is consistent with the problematic interpretation but does not actually require it, that interpretation is almost certainly wrong.

Several posts ago, I talked about the first point. Specifically, what does it mean to be a spiritual being? We know God is spirit, but we can make an argument angels are physical, bur just in a different way. What can make them spiritual is the fact that the exist in more dimensions than us, therefore slipping into one we can’t see would render them invisible to us, and something we can’t touch (since we can only manipulate objects in 3 dimensions). Existing in more dimensions than someone else would give them seemingly god-like powers. They would be able to take shortcuts, and with God given abilities, they would seem to have power.

In some passages of the Bible, angels have appeared to humans physically, and if we take this interpretation, they would have to just step out of the other dimensions. 
There are some other good points starting with post #51, but I’m just trying to point out the fact that spiritual may be just a higher plane of existence. They still have to abide by the laws of physics, only God can step outside it.

Kjvav

  If we see things by light reflecting off of them, how did Saul see Samuel when the witch at Endor brought him up. If there is no substance to a being who is not of this Earthly realm, how was he visible? How has any spirit been visible? When the disciples thought they saw a spirit walking on the water Jesus didn’t correct them by saying “there’s no such thing”, or “you can’t see spirits”. 

x-9140319185
Kjvav wrote:

  If we see things by light reflecting off of them, how did Saul see Samuel when the witch at Endor brought him up. If there is no substance to a being who is not of this Earthly realm, how was he visible? How has any spirit been visible? When the disciples thought they saw a spirit walking on the water Jesus didn’t correct them by saying “there’s no such thing”, or “you can’t see spirits”. 

The answer may lie in a quantum soul (look that up happy.png

However, soul is different from an angel in terms of if it is spiritual or not. 

wsswan

I think spirits can make themselves visible or at least they can be revealed by God. I was a supervisor over 3 people in biostratigraphy. One Friday night one of the women I was in charge of told me how wonderful it was to work with me. How I made the time pass quickly. The following Monday when I got to the building I was working in and opened the door I felt a rush of thick heavy air. As I walked to my desk the air was hard to breath. It was hard to work the air was so heavy, I prayed about it but had no enlightenment. Finally about 10 am the one who had said such good things about me on Friday got up and left for a while. Another person slid her chair over to me and whispered to me that the woman who just left had been going around all the section supervisors and the department manager that I was a big problem causing her to not work properly and I was a terrible hindrance I was. I started praying for guidance and truth to deal with the situation. Suddenly the Glory Cloud was around me. I looked away from my microscope and looked at the woman that had been deriding me. On each of her shoulders was an entity that was about the size and shape of a squirrel monkey. They had leather like skin that was gray with a tinge of green, The were taking turns whispering in her ears. She would shake or nod her head as each finished their whispering. I went back to my microscope. I then explained to the demons they had no power over me and those I am in authority over because Jesus ha already paid for my deliverance. I then commanded that all the evil things that had been said about me would not bring about any negative feelings or bad financial ratings. All things mentioned were said in the name of Jesus. The air became normal and I felt at ease. That afternoon she was either hot or cold and a vent was blowing on her. She asked if I could shut it off. I said I'll sure try. I made a somewhat hard climb on the furniture and shut down the vent. After a little while she took another bathroom break and the other woman slid her chair over to me again. This time she (an Assembly of God attender) said how could you treat her so nicely after what she has been doing. I replied we do not fight among flesh and blood but against principalities and powers of the air. In other words satan and his minions. I had my work evaluation talks with all the people above me. I asked each one has anyone said anything bad about me. Everyone said none that I remember. I got a very good rating and raise that year.

x-9140319185

So does that mean they are physical and can appear to us because they come into our 3 dimensions? Or are they something else entirely?

wsswan

I don't know that answer. All I really know is God has revealed several of the evil forces attacking me, I have not been shown any angels.