How much is too much evolution?

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TruthMuse
stephen_33 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

I'm not going in circles; however, one of us seems to be doing massive grammatical gymnastics at the moment. Frankly, what you are doing with Jeremiah has nothing to do with a common ancestor and six days of creation, as it is clearly written. Your adding qualifiers to terms like "scientifically factual information" muddies up the only thing that matters: is factual? It can be factual, and science could miss it due to its built-in blinders limiting how it can measure weight.

....

At the risk of seeming pedantic, there isn't a separate set of facts that are 'scientific', only facts.

Science is a method by which the matter of fact of some natural process is established (as best it can be) but never proven beyond all doubt.

This is one of the reasons I really like the way you think, yes...totally agree. I will also say tbwp10 as well, I just find myself disagreeing with the two of you a lot.

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

You don't follow correct, sound principles of biblical interpretation, but make scripture a matter of private interpretation.  Your type of approach leads to a multitude of problems and wrong, incorrect interpretations throughout Church history like when people erroneously take Jeremiah 10:1-5 to be a 'clear', 'obvious' prohibition against Christmas trees. 

If one follows sound hermeneutical principles, then the apologetic, polemical nature of Genesis 1 against Ancient Near East pagan cosmologies and Egyptian cosmologies in particular cannot be denied, and Genesis 1 must be interpreted in that context.  Sound principles of biblical interpretation require it.

You can still 'give me the four-hundred and eleven' you owe me though.

I believe in a systematic view of scripture. It cannot lead to multi-able translations; all text has to agree with all other text that is not something that allows for someone to alter the meaning into something that disagrees with the rest of the scripture. Your view does just what you are complaining about; the things in that chapter and other things in the book were quoted by various speakers/writers of other books as true events. You've turned them into something other than the reality that they portray. As I said, there is truth, points of view don't shape truth, there is truth, opinions will vary with the wind, reality doesn't bend to our feelings or will, or our desires to see reality look like as we want it to be.

The irony you can't see is that you've read your own modern cultural understanding into the text where it doesn't belong.  I do not advocate multiple interpretation readings.  There can be only a single original meaning and this original meaning doesn't change.  This is exactly what the *historical-grammatical* method every pastor learns in seminary is intent on determining: the author's original intent by looking at the grammar, syntax and the historical/cultural context. 

The irony is that your interpretation is simply another erroneous interpretation in a long line of them down through history that is colored and skewed by the modern worldview you've been raised in.  It's just like those who read Christmas trees into Jeremiah 10:1-5 because it's so 'obvious' that that's the 'clear meaning' of the text--even though it can't be since Christmas trees are a relatively new invention that have only been around since the 16th century.  It's like those who read dinosaurs into Job because it's so 'obvious' and 'clear' that behemoth and leviathan are descriptions of dinosaurs, even though dinosaurs are only a relatively recent discovery of science and other verses in the Bible show that things like leviathan can't be dinosaurs.  It's like OECs who erroneously read the modern day notion of the Big Bang into Genesis 1:3.  It's like YECs who erroneously read a 'water vapor canopy' into the 'waters above'. 

What you, YECs, and OECs can't seem to see is that you actually give modern science more credit than you realize and allow modern science to influence your reading of the Bible more than you realize, whereas ironically, I, as a scientist, do not because I know modern science is a relatively new phenomenon that hasn't always been around and therefore can't have any bearing on the original intended meaning of the text. 

The correct meaning is the original intended meaning.  The original meaning does not change.  The application of it may, but the original meaning does not.

(And on a side note you need to 'give me the four-hundred and eleven' you owe me)

For me, this is very simple, what was created on day three, day four, and day five? Was anything created on those days, or not, in reality? If not, why were the words selected to describe the event used? Why not use words that actually give an accurate account instead of these magic fact finders Egypt knowledge is required words for countless generations to see!? God knew who would read the text later. Words have meaning; using them when getting any point across is always done with intent; you are undercutting that here.

tbwp10

'magic fact finders Egypt knowledge is required words'?

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:

'magic fact finders Egypt knowledge is required words'?

Please ignore that, I was being an ass!

stephen_33
TruthMuse wrote:
stephen_33 wrote:

At the risk of seeming pedantic, there isn't a separate set of facts that are 'scientific', only facts.

Science is a method by which the matter of fact of some natural process is established (as best it can be) but never proven beyond all doubt.

This is one of the reasons I really like the way you think, yes...totally agree. I will also say tbwp10 as well, I just find myself disagreeing with the two of you a lot.

And that's fine because civil disagreement is the fuel of lively, interesting discussion.  😊

But I often find with those of a religiously fundamental outlook, that misunderstandings are the cause of  disagreement - for example, the mistaken belief that all 'atheists' are 'God' deniers or that the theory of evolution claims to explain the origin of life etc..

TruthMuse

Evolution is a biological term it has nothing to do with non-life becoming alive, you cannot get to evolution without something starting life from non-life. That particular topic is indirectly related because if you cannot get out of the starting block there is no conversation about evolution.

I'm not sure I agree with you on Atheism respectfully, holding a view within one's head that says this is right or that is wrong, this is true that is false are opinions, beliefs, and they mold our worldviews. We use our beliefs to color our worldviews, we see everything because of them or we deny something because of them.

 

I like someone who can voice why they believe what they do and defends their beliefs. Even the ones I disagree with, I have much more respect for them than the ones who remain silent and refuse to have their beliefs challenged.

stephen_33
TruthMuse wrote:

I'm not sure I agree with you on Atheism respectfully, holding a view within one's head that says this is right or that is wrong, this is true that is false are opinions, beliefs, and they mold our worldviews. We use our beliefs to color our worldviews, we see everything because of them or we deny something because of them.

This is quite important and deserves clarification: If some (/any) proposition is advanced about the existence of something, it's possible to react in one of three ways:-

  • reject the proposition and deny the existence of what's being proposed
  • accept the proposition, thereby accepting the existence of what's being proposed
  • neither reject nor accept the proposition but withold judgment on the matter until more convincing evidence is forthcoming


It's the third of those that describes my position on a number of issues, from the existence of 'God' to visitation by aliens. It isn't logically tenable in my opinion to deny outright the existence of anything that is not contradictory but neither is it sensible to believe something as fact when you feel the evidence is insufficient.

TruthMuse
stephen_33 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

I'm not sure I agree with you on Atheism respectfully, holding a view within one's head that says this is right or that is wrong, this is true that is false are opinions, beliefs, and they mold our worldviews. We use our beliefs to color our worldviews, we see everything because of them or we deny something because of them.

This is quite important and deserves clarification: If some (/any) proposition is advanced about the existence of something, it's possible to react in one of three ways:-

  • reject the proposition and deny the existence of what's being proposed
  • accept the proposition, thereby accepting the existence of what's being proposed
  • neither reject nor accept the proposition but withold judgment on the matter until more convincing evidence is forthcoming


It's the third of those that describes my position on a number of issues, from the existence of 'God' to visitation by aliens. It isn't logically tenable in my opinion to deny outright the existence of anything that is not contradictory but neither is it sensible to believe something as fact when you feel the evidence is insufficient.

I can see your first two propositions, your third is fuzzy basically siding with the first without wanting to make the declaration. That isn't withholding a view, you can claim to not fully be able to accept the proposition without total proof and side with it, just as you can the other way and reject the proposition go there. We can trust what we get from this, that, or the other thing, from these people, not those. 

 

However, you choose to see the world or refuse to see the world has choices involved in them in trust and faith. None of us can prove God or disprove God, it will be faith always either way that will not change. There will always be a reason to doubt, there will always be a counterargument, there will always be the one who professes the opposite of what we believe and is the worst example of human life walking the planet.

tbwp10

@stephen_33,

Yeah, I think I have to agree with @TruthMuse on this one when it comes to atheism.  In formal philosophy theism has always been the proposition that God exists [A], while atheism has always been the negation of that proposition that God does not exist [~A].  I know Flew popularized the notion of a so-called 'weak atheism' that instead of an active denial of the proposition God exists, is a passive 'absence of belief' or 'lack of belief in God' as the 'default' position.  I know a lot of the 'new atheists' want to recast or reframe the debate that way.  I'm just not sure I buy it.  To me, it seems only slightly different from agnosticism and mainly just a clever way to avoid the hassle of having to demonstrate a negative proposition, and stick theists with the burden of proof.  So I'm not sure that's as much as a misunderstanding as it is a disagreement.  I personally would prefer to keep the formal categories the way they've always been in philosophy where atheism is the proposition that God does not exist, agnosticism is the neutral position that neither accepts nor rejects the existence of God, and then reserve your term *non-theism* for lack of belief in God.

(*although, I don't agree with @TruthMuse's pronouncement of 'worst example of human life walking the planet')

TruthMuse
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

'magic fact finders Egypt knowledge is required words'?

Please ignore that, I was being an ass!

Also, I should have added this too, I'm sorry I was being an ass.

tbwp10

Lol, I wasn't offended.  I just simply couldn't make any sense of what you were trying to say by, 'magic fact finders Egypt knowledge is required words'.  I thought you were speaking in code or something.

stephen_33
TruthMuse wrote:

I can see your first two propositions, your third is fuzzy basically siding with the first without wanting to make the declaration. That isn't withholding a view, you can claim to not fully be able to accept the proposition without total proof and side with it, just as you can the other way and reject the proposition go there. We can trust what we get from this, that, or the other thing, from these people, not those. 

 

However, you choose to see the world or refuse to see the world has choices involved in them in trust and faith. None of us can prove God or disprove God, it will be faith always either way that will not change. There will always be a reason to doubt, there will always be a counterargument, there will always be the one who professes the opposite of what we believe and is the worst example of human life walking the planet.

But the question of whether something descibed as 'God' actually exists or not is a binary issue in common with every question of whether something exists or not - it either does or it doesn't and faith doesn't alter that. Faith is simply a term we use to describe belief in something as fact when the evidence to support such belief is lacking.

How about considering the more neutral question of whether or not our planet has been visited by aliens? Where do you stand on that?

tbwp10

....And here I have to agree more with @stephen_33 if I take his meaning correctly to mean faith is a psychological state that is a little different from a formal proposition in philosophy

TruthMuse

happy.png I have to say, when you require an outside source or knowledge to decipher scripture, that bothers me. I grant we have our worldviews, that is just part of being human, nothing new there under the sun, but having to have Egyptian knowledge of the past to be able to read what is clearly written seemed to add to scripture, something I don't think is needed, required, or desired.

This isn't saying we shouldn't look at the culture of the time, but it takes the simplicity of the text and mucking them up. One of our problems all have with God (meaning me too) is that we miss the obvious so often with Him, so much so we will be without excuse when everything is revealed. The text are words, and words have meaning, meanings that were chosen to enlighten us about the origin of the universe from the only source that could make these things known. It is either a revelation from God or not when life's beginning was being discussed, and if it gets cast aside for cause, the cause, and the text are in conflict. We cannot hold two opposing views about the same thing; simultaneously, one or both can be wrong, but only one can be right.

stephen_33
tbwp10 wrote:

@stephen_33,

Yeah, I think I have to agree with @TruthMuse on this one when it comes to atheism.  In formal philosophy theism has always been the proposition that God exists [A], while atheism has always been the negation of that proposition that God does not exist [~A].  I know Flew popularized the notion of a so-called 'weak atheism' that instead of an active denial of the proposition God exists, is a passive 'absence of belief' or 'lack of belief in God' as the 'default' position. ...

I think you're mistaken here because that's not what I find...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#:~:text=Atheism%2C%20in%20the%20broadest%20sense,that%20there%20are%20no%20deities.

"Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist.[5][6] In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[1][2][7][8] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[9][10] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists"

"The etymological root for the word atheism originated before the 5th century BCE from the ancient Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)". In antiquity, it had multiple uses as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshiped by the larger society,[13] those who were forsaken by the gods, or those who had no commitment to belief in the gods"

That suggests that so-called weak atheism was recognised in antiquity.

stephen_33
tbwp10 wrote:

... I know a lot of the 'new atheists' want to recast or reframe the debate that way.  I'm just not sure I buy it.  To me, it seems only slightly different from agnosticism and mainly just a clever way to avoid the hassle of having to demonstrate a negative proposition, and stick theists with the burden of proof.  So I'm not sure that's as much as a misunderstanding as it is a disagreement.  I personally would prefer to keep the formal categories the way they've always been in philosophy where atheism is the proposition that God does not exist, agnosticism is the neutral position that neither accepts nor rejects the existence of God, and then reserve your term *non-theism* for lack of belief in God.

But on this specifically, please explain why my position is inconsistent or false in some way?

Have aliens visited Earth? I find it extremely unlikely given the physical constraints we know exist in travelling across inter-stellar space but can I actually refute such a claim? No, of course not, I can only withold judgment on the matter until more evidence comes in.

Is that an inconsistent or false position to take?

I take much the same position on the question of the existence of the Biblical 'God'. Since such a claim can't be refuted (unless it involves a contradiction), it's logically inconsistent to deny that it's possible, so I adopt the settled position of witholding judgment on the matter until more evidence comes in.

Is that an inconsistent or false position to take?

tbwp10

@stephen_33,

I think I'm more referring to how philosophy has historically formalized theism [A] and atheism [~A] with the latter as a negation of the former.  I believe Stanford Philosophy has an entry specifically on that.

I'm not saying your position is false or inconsistent.  I'm just pedantically splitting hairs about definitions, because you said some theists/religious people misunderstand things like thinking all atheists are 'God deniers'.  I don't misunderstand that.  I understand what you're sayng.  I just don't exactly agree with it. 

To me, theism = the proposition that God exists.  Atheism = literally the negation of that proposition (Greek prefix 'a-' = no/not; hence, atheism = 'not theism'.  The converse proposition that God does not exist) (*and yes there is variation in use in antiquity as you point out---heck, Christians were called 'atheists' for 'denying the gods'---so again I'm referring more to how it's traditionally been formalized in philosophy).

I recognize that a lot of atheists today don't claim that God does NOT exist per se but simply take the passive 'weak atheism' stance (as it's been called) that they don't think evidence warrants belief in the proposition God exists.  I'm not challenging that view, I'm just simply saying that I disagree with that as a proper definition of atheism.  To me that view doesn't technically qualify as 'atheism' as it has historically and formally been defined in philosophy (i.e., to me, all atheists--by definition and the actual meaning of the term--are 'God-deniers').  I'm just being picky about the strict meaning of the word a-theism as not-theism, a negation of the theistic proposition. 

You once said you prefer the term *non-theist*.  I like that and prefer it too.  From my pov, your position is not strictly atheism, but better described as a *non-theist* position.

Does that make sense?

tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:

I have to say, when you require an outside source or knowledge to decipher scripture, that bothers me. I grant we have our worldviews, that is just part of being human, nothing new there under the sun, but having to have Egyptian knowledge of the past to be able to read what is clearly written seemed to add to scripture, something I don't think is needed, required, or desired.

This isn't saying we shouldn't look at the culture of the time, but it takes the simplicity of the text and mucking them up. One of our problems all have with God (meaning me too) is that we miss the obvious so often with Him, so much so we will be without excuse when everything is revealed. The text are words, and words have meaning, meanings that were chosen to enlighten us about the origin of the universe from the only source that could make these things known. It is either a revelation from God or not when life's beginning was being discussed, and if it gets cast aside for cause, the cause, and the text are in conflict. We cannot hold two opposing views about the same thing; simultaneously, one or both can be wrong, but only one can be right.

@TruthMuse,

Not require an outside source, but can't avoid one.  One of my main points that I consider very important in our discussion is that it's impossible NOT to bring in outside sources.  People who take what I see as kind of an aloof position that 'I just read the Bible' or 'I just believe the Bible' I think are fooling themselves.  'I just believe the Bible and take it at its word' sounds all noble and good, but in reality it's an illusion.  It's an illusion to think that we are 'just reading and believing the Bible' without any external influence.  It's impossible NOT to bring external influences and 'outside sources' into the equation.  It only *seems* like we're not doing that, because we don't require any additional knowledge or extra study to read the Bible through the lens of our own cultural context because we posses that knowledge and understanding *already*.   

In addition, we need to remember that technically we're not reading the inspired word of God if we're reading a translation.  That is a long-held view that even kjav recently noted that divine inspiration/inerrancy extends to the 'original autographs'.  Protestants have long-held that the 'original autographs'---which we don't even have' anymore---are inspired, but translations are not.  Because remember, translations ARE interpretations.  It's easy to forget this.  It's easy to forget that translations are men's (and women's) interpretations.  I get flak for reading scholarly commentaries by 'just read and believe the Bible' people who forget their Bible translation was produced by the same scholars! 

And here's where I risk being misunderstood as not believing the Bible or as an anti-Bible heretic.  But if anyone can understand me, I think you can.  So see if you can hear what I'm saying (and what I'm not saying) without misunderstanding:

It's not that I reject inerrancy, but that I see it as a theoretical belief that no one can actually put into practice.  And here's where I really risk being misunderstood, but let me take a stab at it and see if I can explain this without being misunderstood.  First, as already noted, the standard Protestant belief on this is that only the 'original autographs' are inspired/inerrant, but not the translations, and most Protestants further believe that these 'original autographs' do not change.  Hence, why we say God's Word is the same and never changes.  Ok, agreed.

But it's also recognized that we don't actually have the 'original autographs' for either the Old Testament or New Testament.  The 'official' Old Testament and 'New Testament' in its original languages represents the work of ACADEMIC SCHOLARS and their best attempt to RECONSTRUCT and APPROXIMATE the 'original autographs'.  Furthermore, while the Word of God in the original autographs doesn't change, SCHOLARS' RECONSTRUCTIONS of the original autographs DO change and so then do our translations along with it.   

For example, the Novum Testamentum or Nestle-Aland is the accepted critical edition of the Greek New Testament that scholars use AND is the official Greek New Testament that is used for virtually every modern translation of the Bible today (the New Testament half).  Now I think that it is pretty darn close to the original autographs and that's not simply an opinion, I believe there are good arguments and reasons to think that the Nestle-Aland reconstructs the originals with a high degree of reliability--not 100%--but 'close enough' and just about every textual critic believes that too (even the liberal, non-Christian ones!).  

BUT, that said, it's still not a static, unchanging reconstruction.  It's gets updated as new manuscripts are discovered.  True, it changes very little, but it still changes and then that changes our translations of the Bible.  For example, the official Greek New Testament used for modern translations---the Novum Testamentum/Nestle-Aland---is in its 28th edition.  Now on the positive side, that means that SCHOLARS' RECONSTRUCTION of the original is continually getting closer and closer to the 100% mark.  But the indisputable reality is still that while God's Word in the original autographs doesn't change, our reconstruction of it does.

Because of that I'm not sure how important it is.  AND here's where I risk being misunderstood again.  'You're saying God's Word/the Bible/belief in inerrancy is not important!!!!'  NO, that's not what I'm saying.  The problem is I'm genuinely not quite sure what I'm saying, lol.  I have difficulty putting my finger on it.  I have difficulty articulating what I'm really trying to say about this.  So let me take a stab at it using an example and maybe YOU can HELP ME better articulate what I'm trying to say (and what I'm NOT saying).  

Here's my example.  Every now and then there is what we would call a significant change to the reconstruction.  Based on our best manuscript evidence, for example, we now know that Mark 16:9-20 is a later ADDITION that someone added that is NOT part of Mark's original gospel and most modern translations now include a note to this effect---right between verse 8 and 9---that informs readers of this.  Now for us that is good news.  It means we're getting closer and closer to that 100% mark.  It also means we now know that Mark 16:9-20 was never part of the original autographs and is NOT actually God's Word.

But here's the 'problem'.  What this further means is that EVERY Bible for centuries and centuries BEFORE this that contained Mark 16:9-20 erroneously treated Mark 16:9-20 as God's inspired/inerrant Word.  But not just this, there are so many tiny variations in New Testament manuscripts thousands of them.  So try to picture what I'm saying.  Today we have thousands of manuscripts that allow us to reconstruct the originals with a high degree of confidence, which is all well and good for us, BUT not for past believers.  To the contrary, most Christians in the past did not enjoy this benefit but were usually 'stuck' with the only one manuscript copy that they had.  Some of these manuscripts were very reliable, while others were pretty atrocious and filled with all manner of scribal errors and additions, deletions, alterations of the text that would then be recopied and spread to other people.  Now we can sort this all out today but they didn't have that benefit.  So a lot of Christians in the past had a version of 'God's Word' that wasn't actually 'God's 100% accurate, never changing Word.'

***BUT WHAT I'M GETTING AT IS THAT IT DID NOT SEEM TO MATTER, because they were still able to come to faith in Christ.  And even though we have manuscripts with thousands of variations and alterations they are truly piddly little things and NONE of them are significant enough to change any Christian doctrine.  So despite all these variations, the fundamental teaching and message of the Bible has always been preserved.

***So in light of these things it makes me wonder if our thinking on this is a little off.  It makes me wonder how important holding such a belief is, when in practice it doesn't really affect us, because we don't actually have the original autographs and our translations are based on reconstructions that are not static and unchanging, but continually being updated.  So it's NOT that it's NOT important.  It's that I just don't see how it has any PRACTICAL IMPORTANCE/RELEVANCE to us, when NO ONE actually has a 100% perfect copy of God's Word to begin with.  We all have IMPERFECT copies of God's PERFECT Word.  BUT since these imperfections have NOT prevented the transmission and communication of the fundamental teachings and message of the Bible it makes me wonder if our (typical Protestant) view on this---or perhaps the priority we give to it is a better way of saying it---is not a little off/askew.

Does that make sense?

***Hopefully I've been clear enough for you to understand what I'm trying to say without misunderstanding me.  In fact, maybe you can help me better articulate what I'm trying to get at.

stephen_33
tbwp10 wrote:

@stephen_33,

I think I'm more referring to how philosophy has historically formalized theism [A] and atheism [~A] with the latter as a negation of the former.  I believe Stanford Philosophy has an entry specifically on that.

I'm not saying your position is false or inconsistent.  I'm just pedantically splitting hairs about definitions, because you said some theists/religious people misunderstand things like thinking all atheists are 'God deniers'.  I don't misunderstand that.  I understand what you're sayng.  I just don't exactly agree with it. 

To me, theism = the proposition that God exists.  Atheism = literally the negation of that proposition (Greek prefix 'a-' = no/not; hence, atheism = 'not theism'.  The converse proposition that God does not exist) (*and yes there is variation in use in antiquity as you point out---heck, Christians were called 'atheists' for 'denying the gods'---so again I'm referring more to how it's traditionally been formalized in philosophy).

....

MindWalk would be able to give you a reply in more detail and at greater length but I think I'll just re-post the original meaning of the term 'atheist' ...

The etymological root for the word atheism originated before the 5th century BCE from the ancient Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)"

I interpret "without god(s)" as being absent of belief in such things, not antipathetic to belief in any god.

But MindWalk also preferred non-theist if I remember and I decided to copy him when I was assumed to be a 'God' denier for the nth. time by one of our evangelical members who didn't understand the subtle difference between the two types of atheist.

I don't have much use for descriptions that lack precision.

tbwp10

Yep, that's pretty much Flew's 'presumption of atheism' argument. That atheism is absence of belief in God/gods.  One potential problem with this Stanford Philosophy notes is that this makes 'atheism' a psychological state, and 'if atheism is defined as a psychological state, then no proposition can count as a form of atheism because a proposition is not a psychological state.'

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/