Besides fossils there is a lot of work done on magnetic deposits in the layers of strata. By correlating time with the magnetism you can actually see how the continents have moved over the ages. This gives a lot of credence to continental drift. Something not found in the layers of sediment surrounding Mount Saint Helen.
I'm puzzled. Why does this club exist?
Sort:
Apr 7, 2020
0
#23
varelse1 wrote:
trump2020maga1 wrote:
varelse1 wrote:
Excellent question MW!
As I am sure you are very much aware, there is currently a movement in the United States, and other countries, to have Darwins Theory of Evolution removed from curriculum of public schools.
Two words I do not use lightly, are "promise" or "guarantee." But I am about to use one now.
I GUARANTEE you, that sticking our heads in the sand, and wishing the problem away, will not result in a positive outcome.
Make no mistake, Mindwalk. This is a war.
A war fighting for the hearts and minds of our youth. A war, fighting for our very future, and continued existence.
And this war being fought right here, on this very thread. And on similar threads, all across the Internet.
Our enemy is the enemy of Reason. This enemy is informed, ruthless, and worst of all, motivated.
And unless we are also informed, ruthless, and motivated, this enemy is going to win.
And we will find Western Civilization catapulted right back into the Dark Ages again.
And our society will be once again at the mercy of it's enemies. Just as it was back then.
No, no, no. You got it wrong about the darkages. The effect on society has nothing to do with whether it is truth, that being said, creationism is better for society. Evolution teaches that we are animals. Which makes it ok me me to kill and eat you, I mean why not, we're just animals, no right no wrong, nothing matters. That is where evolution leads
And where does YE Creationism lead?
To mysticism. To superstition. To witch hunts, inquisitions, and crusades.
There is no upside whatsoever, to abandoning Reason, in favor of superstition.
We tried it once. It was called the Dark Ages.
Look it up.
Are you serious?
Yeah, I don't see how it leads to any of those things
Apr 8, 2020
0
#25
TruthMuse wrote:
.
.
Laying anywhere could be for any reason, with none pointing to a common ancestor. You have anything else other than there are fossils in the ground?
Fossils laying anywhere could be anything, yes.
Follis laying in a very specific order, to match a model which was laid out decades or even a century before they were dug up, is a tightrope.
A very, very narrow tightrope. Which is balanced by the Theory of Evolution, with every fossil discovered.
Apr 8, 2020
0
#26
trump2020maga1 wrote:
Yeah, I don't see how it leads to any of those things
You leapt from Evolution to Anarchy.
I leapt the other direction.
Deal with it.
Apr 8, 2020
0
#27
The Bible says who created. Science is merely trying to find out how. Probably no one will agree with that statement. BTW I like the precious @varelse1. It might be worthwhile to mention the closer animals and plants are in relation to each other on the tree of life, as described by biologists, zoologists, and botanists, there are fewer differences in the DNA. This seems to indicate a closer relationship.
Apr 9, 2020
0
#28
varelse1 wrote:
Mainly because they were all found lying in the right order, in the geologic ladder.
Unicellular organisms predate multicellular organisms.
Plants predate animals.
Exoskeletal predates endoskeletal.
Fish predate amphibians.
Reptiles predate mammal.
And so on.
And so on.
There's hundreds of such relationships. It just cant a coincidence.
And they always date the fossils by the layer. Never the other way around. So nothing circular there.
Then there's all the transitional fossils. Which is the really exciting part.
Did you know over the last 25 years, we have uncovered more than THIRTY different species of feathered dinosaurs?
We have pieced together an almost complete puzzle of how flight evolved, step- by-tiny-step.
And new species being found in other branches well all. Which makes it easy to miss what is happening, if you blink.
Sorry if I come off sounding over-enthusiastic. Like I said, is very exciting stuff.
"in the geologic ladder" This isn't a hard fact that connects the dots between lifeforms, is it? The fact you see them in the earth that suggests age doesn't mean one came from another; it only means they were found in the ground that indicates some period. What connects these dots beside the wants to say that they are connected through ancestry? If this is the strongest piece of evidence shouldn't it be more than a educated guess?
Apr 9, 2020
0
#29
The rodents changed through the ages too. Over time species died out and were replaced by new species that filled the different ecological niches. Very few animals appear now as they did in the fossil record, Of course there are a few exceptions. eg The Coelacanth where the oldest fossil ever found was dated to sometime around 360 million years ago, while the most recent one was from about 80 million years ago (mya). Scientists then safely assumed that the Coelacanth went extinct about the same time as the dinosaurs did, some 65 mya, and that was that. Scientists recently, in geological time, found the species is still alive today. This is an extremely rare occurrence.
Apr 9, 2020
0
#30
trump2020maga1 wrote:
varelse1 wrote:
Excellent question MW!
As I am sure you are very much aware, there is currently a movement in the United States, and other countries, to have Darwins Theory of Evolution removed from curriculum of public schools.
Two words I do not use lightly, are "promise" or "guarantee." But I am about to use one now.
I GUARANTEE you, that sticking our heads in the sand, and wishing the problem away, will not result in a positive outcome.
Make no mistake, Mindwalk. This is a war.
A war fighting for the hearts and minds of our youth. A war, fighting for our very future, and continued existence.
And this war being fought right here, on this very thread. And on similar threads, all across the Internet.
Our enemy is the enemy of Reason. This enemy is informed, ruthless, and worst of all, motivated.
And unless we are also informed, ruthless, and motivated, this enemy is going to win.
And we will find Western Civilization catapulted right back into the Dark Ages again.
And our society will be once again at the mercy of it's enemies. Just as it was back then.
No, no, no. You got it wrong about the darkages. The effect on society has nothing to do with whether it is truth, that being said, creationism is better for society. Evolution teaches that we are animals. Which makes it ok me me to kill and eat you, I mean why not, we're just animals, no right no wrong, nothing matters. That is where evolution leads
(Emphasis MindWalk's.)
Rather than write lots of lengthy posts in these forums and then have to do it again the next time somebody brought up this sort of point, I have started two pinned threads in MTOD ("MindWalk's Truly Open Discussion"), which I run. That way, I'll know just where to find them when needed. They are here:
https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/evolution-and-morality
https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/the-evidence-for-evolution
I have written their initial posts, but by no means have I said all that I could yet. (For those who do not know, any topic is fair game in MTOD, and yes, you can argue using religious belief.)
Apr 9, 2020
0
#31
It is clear that those who say there isn't good evidence for evolution just haven't looked very much to find it. That is why the second of the two threads I have started is on the evidence. I have only made one post in it so far, but we'll post more.
TruthMuse wrote:
varelse1 wrote:
Mainly because they were all found lying in the right order, in the geologic ladder.
Unicellular organisms predate multicellular organisms.
Plants predate animals.
Exoskeletal predates endoskeletal.
Fish predate amphibians.
Reptiles predate mammal.
And so on.
And so on.
There's hundreds of such relationships. It just cant a coincidence.
And they always date the fossils by the layer. Never the other way around. So nothing circular there.
Then there's all the transitional fossils. Which is the really exciting part.
Did you know over the last 25 years, we have uncovered more than THIRTY different species of feathered dinosaurs?
We have pieced together an almost complete puzzle of how flight evolved, step- by-tiny-step.
And new species being found in other branches well all. Which makes it easy to miss what is happening, if you blink.
Sorry if I come off sounding over-enthusiastic. Like I said, is very exciting stuff.
"in the geologic ladder" This isn't a hard fact that connects the dots between lifeforms, is it? The fact you see them in the earth that suggests age doesn't mean one came from another; it only means they were found in the ground that indicates some period. What connects these dots beside the wants to say that they are connected through ancestry? If this is the strongest piece of evidence shouldn't it be more than a educated guess?
The strongest, most direct evidence we have for common ancestry/biological relatedness comes from genomics
sciencechimp2004 wrote:
wsswan wrote:
Why doesn't anyone comment on my posts. Are they too absurd for you all?
Their primary strategy is to "avoid the question."
So you're a mind reader? More likely it's for no reason in particular. My expertise is in evolutionary biology and paleontology so I'll take a crack at it. What's "the question" that's supposedly being avoided?
@wsswan I did find your background interesting. What scientific field did you work in if you don't mind me asking? And was there anything specific in your posts that you were wanting people to comment on?
Whole Genome Duplication (WGD) events that we've observed in real time, for starters
Apr 9, 2020
0
#36
I worked 2 years as a micro paleontologist studying foraminifera. I was a biostratigrapher using those fossils to date and the depth of the sand deposits. Because different species of foraminifera are found in different environments, paleontologists can use the fossils to determine environments in the past. Foraminifera have been used to map past distributions of the tropics, locate ancient shorelines, and track global ocean temperature changes during the ice ages. Foraminifera are found in all marine environments, they may be planktic or benthic in mode of life. ... The Order Foraminiferida (informally foraminifera) belongs to the Kingdom Protista, Subkingdom Protozoa, Phylum Sarcomastigophora, Subphylum Sarcodina, Superclass Rhizopoda, Class Granuloreticulosea. Planktic species are best for dating the sediment as well as looking at the heavy oxygen ratio in the shells. The benthic species show the depth of the deposition as well as the date. The reason foraminifera are valuable to study is change in species is fairly rapidly compared to larger animals so more accurate flow of the species can be observed, Also there are great numbers of these fossils and with abundant fossils much more of their evolution can be observed. Most people are not familiar with these fossils and their detailed shells because they are very small and insignificant compared to dinosaurs but in reality they are very important in paleontology.
@wsswan Nice and running into a fellow paleontologist this is a rare event indeed
Apr 9, 2020
0
#38
@tbwp10 Most of my work was evaluating oil reservoirs for production over time and the rate to produce the oil for optimal production, 2 years as a biostratigrapher, and I worked as a polymer chemist for 5-6 years. Remember back in the 1980s when the government said we had no stealth planes in construction. I was making the composites the planes were made from. LOL
sciencechimp2004 wrote:
What would be a specific example of that, and where could I find the evidence?
Sure. Here's a copy paste from an article by Shapiro that cites some examples:
Artificial species arise through hybridization, as in the case of the wheat-rye hybrid Triticale [125,126], and involve genome mergers and whole genome duplication (WGD) events [127,128]. A similar “cataclysmic evolution” process involving hybridization of wild grasses was at the origin of flour wheat (Triticum) several thousand years ago and can be reproduced in real time [129,130]. Ongoing abrupt hybrid speciation has been observed to occur in wild sunflowers [131]. A recent paper reports laboratory formation of a novel tobacco species with a double genome by fusion of tissue culture cells from two different natural Nicotiana species [132].
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127. Bento M., Pereira H.S., Rocheta M., Gustafson P., Viegas W., Silva M. Polyploidization as a retraction force in plant genome evolution: Sequence rearrangements in triticale. PLoS ONE. 2008;3:27. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0001402. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [CrossRef] [Google Scholar]
128. Bento M., Gustafson J.P., Viegas W., Silva M. Size matters in Triticeae polyploids: Larger genomes have higher remodeling. Genome. 2011;54:175–183. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
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Honestly, though, more important than trying to dive into all this and debate evolution is for everyone to first update their understanding of evolution. And that may take some time, but it'll be worth it because most of these debates today are way behind the times and often amount to trading strawman arguments. For example, arguments over transition fossils and gradualism/gradual evolution via random mutation and natural selection. Modern biology is way past all that and arguing over it is arguing over older, simplistic, outdated views of evolution that don't reflect our current scientific understanding which is far more sophisticated and complex.
Mainly because they were all found lying in the right order, in the geologic ladder.
Unicellular organisms predate multicellular organisms.
Plants predate animals.
Exoskeletal predates endoskeletal.
Fish predate amphibians.
Reptiles predate mammal.
And so on.
And so on.
There's hundreds of such relationships. It just cant a coincidence.
And they always date the fossils by the layer. Never the other way around. So nothing circular there.
Then there's all the transitional fossils. Which is the really exciting part.
Did you know over the last 25 years, we have uncovered more than THIRTY different species of feathered dinosaurs?
We have pieced together an almost complete puzzle of how flight evolved, step- by-tiny-step.
And new species being found in other branches well all. Which makes it easy to miss what is happening, if you blink.
Sorry if I come off sounding over-enthusiastic. Like I said, is very exciting stuff.
Laying anywhere could be for any reason, with none pointing to a common ancestor. You have anything else other than there are fossils in the ground?