Inadequate application of rules - We will not let our place stolen by dirty tricks.

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Avatar of Marignon

Hi, Phoenix_Scorpion I don't understand.

Bayern fans are 4th http://www.chessleagues.com/2016/chl/2/

Not 11th as you indicate.

Not 7th as you claim later.

 

You do not know how league rules work, err countless times, do not give clear results and remove topics.  

It is a pity I sent you a private message two weeks ago instead  of nailing you immediately.

Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion

Sorry for any misunderstandings and confusion.

First of all - chessleagues results are not good nor official! It's not just the fact that there is NO single penalty for multiplayers included there, but there are also some missing matches. In DO two missing matches created a confusion about final standings.

There is another place where all results are corrected, without missing matches and with multiplayers penalties > https://chess.bounceme.net/chess/ligas.php

I'm not sure why do you have problems to sign up for that site or if there are other members of this group which are having the same issues, but I will gladly share all results here so that everybody can see them.


And now, apparently the more important part for you - Bayern Fans are officialy 11th placed in 2016 Division Two after multiplayers recalculation. That's the fact and that can be seen on mentioned site and here in DT forum topic. 3 match scores have changed in Bayern Fans matches comparing to chessleagues results and due to very tense battle and small points difference that changed a lot in DT while on PD and DO there were no big changes even after multiplayers recalculation.

Meanwhile you have complained that one player is irregularly counted as multiplayer instead of assigning him to Bayern Fans as "home" team, and indeed you were partially right. I guess that is the main reason why you are still confused with results, the fact that I was completely honest with you from the start and confessed that multiplayers recalculation on mentioned website could not be done COMPLETELY by the official CL 2016 rules, and that indeed for some matches, player "andrey_stoletof" should be counted as Bayern Fans player and his results should not be recalculated for those matches. Then I decided to check if those irregularities changed anything important in final results - and the answer is: THERE IS NO SINGLE MATCH SCORE THAT IS CHANGED DUE TO THOSE IRREGULARITIES IN MPS RECALCULATIONS ON BOUNCEME SITE!

Above all, there were no intentional "inadequate application of rules" but just the fact that we have agreed on very complicated MPs rule for 2016 season which could not be completely automatized on bounceme site. It was possible that some match scores are therefore not correct on site, but as I said above, I've manually checked them all and there is simply no such case!

The whole confussion peaked when you didn't understand my private message to you that even if you claim that "andrey_stoletof" is Bayern player for WHOLE CL 2016 season (which is not according to the rules!) your team could only be placed somewhere from 7th to 8th place - while DO promotion can be granted only for top 3 teams + 2 extra top, due to some withdrawals from higher divisions. I've also said that 7th place can be reached only if you make the same claim for at least one more multiplayer - "13SECTOR", but that 3rd match against Arsenal can not be won anyhow due to 3-4 additional multiplayers used by Bayern Fans in that match (inicially won but then lost after MPs recalculation). So there is no 7th place for your team, it was just a hypothetical situation - my try to explain to you that even if your claim(s) could be granted (even though that would be breaking of the rules) there would be no big improvement of final place for your team, at least no big enough to become concurent for DO promotion.

The whole problem and the reason why your claims make some sense is the fact that in Multi-team players Alphabetical list it was never clearly stated during the season which players are disqualified in which matches and you said that you have tought all the time that "andrey_stoletof" is regular Bayern Fans player so that is the reason why he has participated in matches from R2 to R5 for Bayern Fans even though officially (by the rules!) during that period he has no "home" team - played for all 5 rounds simultaneously for both Bayern Fans and Real Madrid!

There was an additional claim from your side that player was not mentioned in separate forum topics where admins were asked to remove multiplayers from their matches, and indeed those were our omissions - the reason for those mistakes is the fact that nobody could FORSE Bayern OR Real admins to remove player while by the rules both teams are still having the chance to become player's "home" teams. So, yes, there was obviously some mistakes during the 2016 season with announcements and listings of multiplayers that may have caused some confusions among team admins. But, our league director has created and managed on daily basis alphabetical list of all multi-team players and all admins were able to see that list and react anytime during the season. The whole confusion could be created only if looking just at that list but no at the rules. In rules it is clearly stated that it is not allowed that player can participate for more teams, HOW a team can become “home“ team for a player and HOW teams will be punished if player continue participating simultaneously for 2 or more rounds for 2 or more teams. Knowing all of this, there were many ways to react: asking for confirmation from league director if some player is regular to play for your team, asking player who is on the list to choose and play only for one team, asking other teams admins to make an agreement about player's home team and remove him from other teams matches... Apparently, none of that were done. Instead you have let mentioned player to play for 5 strait rounds for 2 different teams simultaneously, even though it is clearly stated in rules that starting from the 2nd time of simultaneous play both teams will be punished! That is why we can only believe that your mistakes was not intentional so that your team doesn’t deserve any additional penalty, but if final results are going to be calculated by league rules, we simply have to follow them consistently and mentioned player have to be penalized for R2-R5 matches for Bayern Fans, too.

One thing for sure, 2016 MPs rule made a lot of confusion among both team admins and even directors, so that is the reason why we have already agreed to change it for 2017 season to much much simpler and more transparent version!

We will also try to do our best to report ALL multiplayer cases timely and corectly in the future, the list will be even available all the time on separate website, so that there should not be any similar confusions in 2017 season.

 

For 2016 results, I will use this forum topic to report all of them along with those manually recalculated to assure everyone that no team is damaged by inadequate way of automatized recalculation done on bounceme website!

Useful links >

TMCL 2016 Rules
CL 2016 Multi-team Players: Alphabetical List

Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion







Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion
[COMMENT DELETED]
Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion

Corrected CL 2016 Div2 results >

FC Bayern Munchen Fans vs Chelsea FC 29.5-27.5 -> 31.5-25.5 (no penalty for 13SECTOR and andrey_stoletof)
FC Bayern Munchen Fans vs FC Astana 12-20 -> 13.5-18.5 (no penalty for 
alibabag_7, andrey_stoletof and PollakAndras)
FC Bayern Munchen Fans vs Levski Sofia 18.5-9.5 -> 19.5-8.5 (no penalty for 
alibabag_7 and andrey_stoletof)
FC Bayern Munchen Fans vs Sunderland AFC 10-2 -> 11-1 (no penalty for 
andrey_stoletof)
FC Bayern Munchen Fans vs ARSENAL FC, PRIDE OF LONDON. 14.5-22.5 -> 16-21 (no penalty for andrey_stoletof)
FC Bayern Munchen Fans vs Juventus F.C. 10.5-9.5 -> 11.5-8.5 (no penalty for andrey_stoletof
)
HNK Rijeka vs FC Bayern Munchen Fans 13-9 -> 12-10 (no penalty for andrey_stoletof)
Besiktas J.K. vs Juventus F.C. 6.5-9.5 -> 5.5-10.5 (penalty needed for atakoyun)
Besiktas J.K. vs Club Universidad de Chile 5.5-6.5 -> 3.5-8.5 (penalty needed for 
atakoyun)
Besiktas J.K. vs ARSENAL FC, PRIDE OF LONDON. 8-20 -> 10-18 (no penalty for FunambulisTR and kartal12)
Atletico de Madrid vs Chelsea FC 3.5-22.5 -> 
4-22 (no penalty for MKMilenko and PollakAndras)
HNK Rijeka vs CSKA Sofia 13-7 -> 
13-7 (no penalty for tarontadevosyan)
Levski Sofia vs CSKA Sofia 16.5-7.5 -> 
15.5-8.5 (no penalty for tarontadevosyan)
Besiktas J.K. vs CSKA Sofia 10.5-13.5 -> 8.5-15.5 (no penalty for tarontadevosyan)
CSKA Sofia vs TEAM EVERTON 7.5-5.5 -> 9.5-3.5 (no penalty for tarontadevosyan)

All in all, no single change in final match score!

Avatar of Marignon

This multiplayer rule was created to stop teams from inviting (STEALING) players from other teams to stop recruiting people for one single match.

We NEVER invited tarontadevosyan or 13SECTOR or andrey_stoletof - they came by themselves and played - we invited only players from Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Hungary.

Avatar of Marignon

We always followed the directions of league admins by 100% - always removed whoever they asked. This is documented in match comments.

About Andrey_Stoletof

Check

https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/cl-2016-r3-potential-multi-team-players2

https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/cl-2016-r4-potential-multi-team-players2

https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/cl-2016-r5-potential-multi-team-players2

 

Andrey Stoletof is not mentioned anywhere.

We did our best to remove any multiteam players that were indicated to us. It was not the case.

 

Please, understand:

You assumed the responsiblity for checking multiteam players before matches and informing us - we were responsible for removing the players that were indicated.

In that case - and I'm sure in the others - there was no information.

So we cannot be punished for things we are not responsible for.

 

Avatar of Marignon

I organized lots of team tournaments myself - and I always had some kind of multiplayer rule.

But these rules were applied only against those teams who did not play fair and deliberately  invited players from rival teams.

I remember only two cases - ciprianmz and his Grischuk fans in Fan Club league and Timofey_Valetsky and East Slavs in Eurasian League. These fraud admins blatantly ignored any warnings and were penalized in the standings (or even expelled),

 

You penalized us - so you mean that we are frauds? This is the question.

 

My opinion is that we could not manage the line-up meticulously in such a diverse team as Bayern and let any people come as friends, even multiteam ninjas, such as tarontadevosyan, but we acted and played fairly to the spirit of the competition to the other teams and to the rules (within our responsibility) - and there is no single reason to penalize our team.

Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion

I must say that neither me personally or any other CL director (to the best of my knowing) had ever suspected that either Bayern Fans club or you personally are doing anything wrong - therefore there was never even a discussion of penalizing your team for using of multi-team players. Those recalculations were done strictly by the rules without using any kind of more severe punishments (although they are predicted in MPs rule in sections 19. c) and 19. d)). The only recalculations that are done "against" Bayern multi-team players are accourding to the rule 19. sections a) and b) that explains how those players are penalized. (https://www.chess.com/groups/forumview/tmcl-2016-rules4)

According to the https://www.chess.com/groups/forumview/cl-2016-multi-team-players-alphabetical-list, multi-team players have to be penalized in bold matches 

andrey_stoletof - FC Bayern Munchen Fans (R1, R2, R3, R4, R5, R6, R7, R8, R9, R10, R11) : Real Madrid C.F. (R1, R2, R3, R4, R5, R7, R9, R10, R11)
13SECTOR - FC Barcelona (R10, R11) : FC Bayern Munchen Fans (R10, R11)
tarontadevosyan - CSKA Sofia (R5, R9, R10, R11) : FC Ararat (R7, R8, R9, R10, R11) and FC Barcelona (R7, R9, R10, R11) and FC Bayern Munchen Fans (R8) and Levski Sofia (R6) and FC Shakhtar Donetsk (R6, R8, R10, R11and Real Madrid C.F. (R11)
bombila77 - ARSENAL FC (R4) : FC Bayern Munchen Fans (R5, R8and FC Barcelona (R10, R11)
meskogn - HNK Rijeka (R2, R4, R5, R7, R9) : FC Bayern Munchen Fans (R8)

I already said that I agree with you that it was a mistake from our side that players like andrey_stoletof and 13SECTOR are not mentioned in separate forum topic, to highlight the multiplayer issue along with other cases. I also tried to understand and explained a reason for such omissions. The fact is that, although those problems were not highlighted in separate forum topics, full list of all multiplayers was available all the time on CLHQ forum as well as the 2016 rules so this is really only the case where CL directors have failed to make things easier to some team admins by pointing out the problem, while team admins have also failed to recognize it and instead let multiplayers to join and play matches although it is clearly stated in rules that "During the 2016 season, each player is allowed to play for only one of the teams taking part in the CL tournament, no matter what division the teams are in." It is also clearly stated that "Once a player has started a non-simultaneous CL match for a particular team, that team becomes their "primary [home] team" for the remainder of the 2016 season.", so it is a mistake from your side if you have tought that andrey_stoletof is Bayern Fans home-team player all the time (while he becomes that only starting from R6 when he stoped to play simultaneously for Real Madrid)

You should also understand that during 2016 season it was already hard enough to find and list all multi-team players timely, so it should not be so strange that some omissions could happen. For 2017 season we are planning to use much easier rule and automatized process of MPs finding, listing and penalizing, which would be completely transparent and visible to all, all the time, on separate website, so I honestly believe that this could be a big step forward and a way to avoid such problems as we are having now.

I've really tried to be as detailed as possible here, sorry for any spelling mistakes and also for somehow being late with answers.

Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion

If I understand you well, you want to know why exactly those results are different on chessleagues and on bounceme sites? Because it is more or less obvious that it has nothing to do with multiplayers and it's still different now.

The reason is because final results are announced some time ago, with match results checked and taken on 25th April from bounceme site. Result that you have shown from chessleagues site is from today's update I guess, so it is already almost one month after the final results have been announced and it not a mistery that for this last month many new account closures may happened and that's the reason why chessleagues results are different now. So basically, that site does not have correct list of matches for DO and no MPs recalculation at all but it still updates results although 2016 season have finished.

I fully understand your point, though. As you can see, I am also not perfectly happy with the fact that some matches might be won by my team in meantime if we have waited for a longer period of time before announcing final results, but if we are going to wait and change final scores after every single new account is closed we could never have final results, right?

However, one thing I would like to see as an improvement starting from CL 2017 is regulating the END DATE of a season in the rules, so that no one could object later WHY some date is taken for final results and not couple of days, weeks or months sooner or later. This way we have basically taken final results at the point where all matches were decided or at least based on remaining games in couple of undecided games, final 3 places could not be changed (with the assumption that there will be no newly closed accounts happy.png). The reason why it was done exactly on 25th April is also because we were able to do that on mentioned date, not 1-2 days earlier because results were not updated then. Now it really looks like there was no need to hurry with final results when nearly one month later we are all still waiting for the start of new season, but that was not a plan back then. sad.png

Avatar of Marignon

Phoenix_Scorpion,

you say:

You should also understand that during 2016 season it was already hard enough to find and list all multi-team players timely, so it should not be so strange that some omissions could happen.

 

I agree, but I don't understand why you are going to penalize us for your omissions. 

That will not go. Let me give you a hint that people usually do not treat each other this way. 

Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion

You would say the same if your opponent's team had multiplayers playing against your team and that helped them to gain a victory?

What is your alternative suggestion? Although we have a rule against multiplaying, we shouldn't penalize any such case? Or we should go manually from case to case, and only if there was regular + additional announcement to resolve multiplayers case we should manually apply penalties only for such cases?

You do agree that rule 19 was not followed in those cases of Bayern Fans players, right? You just don't agree that rule should be followed for some cases which were not highlighted as problems?

Avatar of Marignon

You do agree that rule 19 was not followed in those cases of Bayern Fans players, right? You just don't agree that rule should be followed for some cases which were not highlighted as problems?

 

The rule should be followed only if some team admins blatantly ignore it and steal players from other teams.

 

The reason is because final results are announced some time ago, with match results checked and taken on 25th April from bounceme site.

 

This is another extremely strange point. You take an arbitrary date, and what's more interesting you do not publish the results at that date, but you publish them now. How are the  results at that date better than the current results, when more matches are finished, etc.

Avatar of Marignon

By the way, you did not do what I asked for - you did not explain the difference between actual match results http://www.chessleagues.com/2016/chl/2/ and your forged results - match by match.

As said many times, football teams results on that website are not available for non-registered players. The registration is problematic - I cannot register, although I tried many times.

So, you should not direct people to that site, but you should publish the results here.

 

Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion

The full DT results are published in one of my previous comments, I can and will do the same for the other two divisions if needed, but so far noone else complained that he can not register and find results in website. Anyhow, those results are all updated on 25th April manually and they are fixed - no further changes will be done (unless we all want to agree to have a new date for final results?) so when time permits I believe that Andriy will update those results in appropriate forum topics here in group.

Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion

And about MPs rule I can not agree with you. There are predicted ways for penalizing those who ignore the rule on purpose (parts c and d), while parts a and b are used for every single case of multiplaying. You can see that if it happens by mistake that one player start playing for more teams simultaneously in one round he is not penalized, just if he continues to do so for more rounds and if team is using a player who already has another "home" team for that season.

This rule is better in my opinion than one which will be used for 2017 season, but in order to have automatized process we have to agree for a new version.

And I forgot to (ones again) answer on WHY are final results different comparing to chessleagues - because chessleagues does not have ANY MPs recalalculations, few matches are missing there in DO and results are updated due to closed accounts up to today, while final results are taken from 25th April.

Of course, since preparation for new season is still not finished and divisions set-up is not published yet, I personally do not mind to make a new update on bounceme site at agreed date and maybe have different final results and standings, the question is how we are going to agree now on a new date that will suit everyone well? Maybe after that date and some new account closure some other admin will ask for a new recalalculation!?

Avatar of Marignon
Phoenix_Scorpion wrote:

. Anyhow, those results are all updated on 25th April manually and they are fixed

This is not true, two weeks ago you did not understand how 1st team rule works. You could not update results manually on the 25th of April. Even if you did so why did you publish results only recently - clearly not on the 25th of April -  and who chose that date - why not 25th of May, for example?

Avatar of Phoenix_Scorpion

Yes we can maybe agree for different date.

Andriy was the one who asked for final results a few days before 25th April, and I could only finish update on 25th. He is the main organizer of this league so I do not see anything wrong with that, though I believe that for future seasons we need the end date included in rules.

Also, yes, I used to think that MPs recalalculations on puremind's site were 100% correct two weeks ago, and that's the reason why I've manually checked and corrected some match results later - however that changes were done exclussively with MPs points, no new games finished or new closed accounts affected those additional checkings - basic results are still from 25th April update.

Avatar of Marignon

 

 

Here, Bayern Munich defeated Rijeka, a much weaker team

https://www.chess.com/club/matches/737080

Unfortunately, we had a cheat (we'd have won without him) - now it is a draw.

 

Bayern vs Arsenal

https://www.chess.com/club/matches/717320/games

19-18 with cheat recount and our player is winning in the last game - so we win 20-18

 

Bayern defeats Slavia

https://www.chess.com/club/matches/681622/games

 

Avatar of Marignon

In any match we had much more players than opponents.

We did not need the multiteamers or cheaters in any way - they only grabbed the places of rightful Bayern players.