Lower the point value for King/Checkmate? (a discussion)

Would lowering the point value of the King, to say 5 points, change the dynamics of teaming in FFA?

The mere fact that you eliminated someone from the game should be reward enough right?

Right now the reward (20 points) is much greater than the risk imo.  Especially for high rated players playing lower rated players.  And when you claim win you gift 20 points to second.

But lowering it to 5 points appears to change the dynamics.

Would players who "team" in the beginning think differently if now they knew that a quick checkmate on an opponent gets only 5 points and also takes off the board all those possible points that can no longer be obtain since the checkmated player is no longer in the game?

Would a player now feel as sick if his opposite blundered a move?

Could you play very well and accumulate enough points that if one of the 2 opposites who "teamed"  won the game and claimed win, that player would only gift 5 points to the other thereby guaranteeing you second?

Would you think about the material point value sacrificed to get checkmate more than you do now?

Would the games be more strategy and tactics to obtain points wherever they can be found?

Let's discuss please.

no, why the hell would you make the queen worth more than the king?

in chess you should be encouraged to find quick elegant solutions in as few moves as possible

so why would you encourage keeping the opponent alive to farm points

If you're going to reduce the king points, it shouldn't be to any less than 15. I think 20 works just fine

@chess_guy3000 

The Queen is the most powerful piece on the board.  I'm just asking questions to promote thought.

Also I'm not encouraging to keeping an opponent alive to farm points.  When you look into your archive and review games see how the points change dramatically in this new system.  The point totals are very close.  Which I believe is a good thing.

Because you no longer have to rely on your opposite.  If you played well and attack etc. your point total is going up so if your opposite let's say blunders or gets teamed up on and you can't help him, it appears that it would not be the end of the world and in fact you can still gain valuable points.

What happens right now is that the scoring is skewed so high for Kings that you absolutely have to team in the beginning for fear you will never be able to catch up if your opposite is sacked. 

@tommerrall949

That just doesn't change the dynamics at all and would still encourage teaming.

The King is valued way to high and because of that people team.  You need that huge pot of points to insure 1st or 2nd in most games.

But this would change things I believe.  The elimination of an opponent should be the goal like regular chess but why give these bonus points for the King?  And let's not even start the discussion of claim win but right now it is used to gift points all the time with your "trusted' teammate.

I ask the community what happens when a player times out for whatever reason early in the FFA game?  Everybody and their long lost brothers from Bulgaria are rushing to get that King...Why?

Because it is worth 20 points!   Not so if it were 5 points let's say.

Don't just look at your games in the archive to see the difference.  Check out any game from players you do not know and see if you see what I'm seeing.  Remember, you just can't go in there and subtract 15 points from those that mated,  but look at the flow of a game and I think you will find things that are being done now would not be, if the King was valued at 5 points.

> And let's not even start the discussion of claim win but right now it is used to gift points all the time with your "trusted' teammate.

What if we leave 2 first checkmates +20, but make the 3rd checkmate +5?

What if we make the 1st checkmate +30, the 2nd +10, the 3rd 0?

There is a positive side in +5 for any checkmate (or king capture), but it is going to make games even longer, decrease fun, increase the difference between 4PC and classic chess (checkmate is not important at all, capturing pieces gives more profit and easier to do).

More points for first checkmates should make active play more profitable. Making the 3rd checkmate 0 points won't allow teamers to gift points by Claim Win. Also if we make it 30/10/0, one of 2 teamers cannot be sure he will finish 2nd, because +10 is just 2 bishops or rooks.

Until we have exhausted all angles of the main topic I really can't look at other options just yet.  I hope you understand BabYagun. 

Games become longer? Not sure how you know that.  Decrease fun? That's kind of what is happening now, at least for me.  There is too much pressure to be the good opposite and avoid being ridiculed if your not.  And the fact that some team to the end some get mad if you don't etc.

The only way to win is to be aggressive and eliminating an opponent will always be the key to victory than not. But in my brief analysis it looks like the games would be very close and competitive.  

Think what bill cooper was wanting, a game with more thinking and strategy than just a rush for pawns.  Think about all the folks that didn't like someone getting so many points for second.  Although arguments for and against both make sense.  Most of that may be forgotten news.

The above will still happen for sure but games will have tighter scores, I believe.  Players squandering pieces only to see someone slide a move in and vulture the mate will still happen but now the points gained for the move are minimal.  And again more importantly a player has still been eliminated.

I'll stop there because if I go too long no one will read it.

Thanks.

I lied lol. 

This would be one of the easiest changes among all the others I have read about to make.  It would be understood by everyone after just one game.  Everything else is exactly the way it is now but may just change it for the better.

My opinion is that teaming, if allowed, would remain the optimal strategy of the game, whatever changes we introduce to the game mechanics. The trust level required for successful teaming may change, but there is no way for two determined teamers that trust 100% each other, to not obtain a huge advantage over opponents that play solo. An advantage that will trivially award them the first and second place, provided they both have a solo playing strength of 1500 or more.

I find the suggestion for decreasing the value of kings almost as interesting as any other suggestion for randomly changing the value of pieces. Honestly it's not that intriguing to me. But it could certainly be a variant offered as custom game, that some people could enjoy now and then.

@Skeftomilos

I honestly put in about 8 hours looking at games. 

Why? because Martin0's original thoughts on how to go about the game are correct.  It is just that some players take it too far and can't let go of their cherished opposite.  I just want a fighting chance.  Since some will play that way who am I to say they can't?  But to feed their addiction with 20 points that can't in almost all cases be overcome just weakens the game.

I say, ban the teamers from playing Solo, so they have more free time for playing Teams. No need to imbalance the game currently named FFA, hoping that the cheaters will stop cheating. Send them to the Teams paradise and rename FFA to Solo Play, to make everyone understand how is expected to play.

Please look at this new post by BabYagun.

https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/thoughts-about-possible-anti-teaming-solutions-2018-11-05

He found a game by chance that reconfirms what I have been stating above. 

Just watched this game by chance. 

Before you go to look at it please read below how the game is scored with a lower value King.

Yellow is mated 1st and the score is:

Yellow 27, Red 22, Blue 37, Green 17

Red gives up and resigns.  Green mates Red and the score is:

Yellow 27, Red 22, Blue 37, Green 22

The Claim Win button would now be showing.  What would you do if you were Blue?
Tick tock tick tock … probably claim right?  

In the Real Game Blue then takes Green's Queen and  it was Green that resigned and gave Blue the points!

Why? because he had 2nd locked up and didn't have enough material to fight on.

The REAL Final score was:

Yellow 27, Red 22, Blue 81, Green 37.  wow.

It makes a difference!

Game #418828  

As you pointed out yourself, the main upside to eliminating a player isn't the +20, it's to knock out a competitor and get that much closer to winning. To be fair, I'd say the are only benefits to eliminating side players. knocking out opposite is hardly ever worth 20 points, much less 5 (while all 4 remain). This is why intuitively i think checkmate should give more points, so that there will be more rivalry between opposites, they might start caring a bit more about who gets the checkmate, which could lessen their willingness to cooperate.

Pernsonally I never liked the claiming (i think games should be played out until there is no theoretial way to overtake another player in points, see here, #36 in essence).

I understand that the "gifting 20 to the other guy for 2nd or 1st" is not great. And it would be great if resigned kings were worth only 5 points. But the probem for me is allowing claim win with mere five point lead. 

As you requested so many times, I reran a few games with 5 points rather than 20. here are some samples.
# 256924
[ 17, 5, 54, 82 ]
[ 16, 4, 39, 51 ]

# 256927
[ 47, 45, 1, 23 ]
[ 32, 30, 1, 6 ]

# 256928
[ 21, 16, 91, 0 ]
[ 21, 16, 46, 0 ]

# 256932
[ 61, 11, 74, 16 ]
[ 43, 11, 42, 16 ]

# 256933
[ 10, 50, 21, 45 ]
[ 10, 20, 21, 28 ]

# 256935
[ 118, 10, 33, 35 ]
[ 72, 8, 32, 34 ]

# 256938
[ 41, 45, 65, 24 ]
[ 40, 30, 34, 24 ]

# 256939
[ 0, 53, 78, 1 ]
[ 0, 37, 47, 1 ]

# 256940
[ 69, 3, 52, 5 ]
[ 37, 3, 37, 5 ]

# 256941
[ 5, 45, 19, 71 ]
[ 5, 30, 19, 39 ]

# 256943
[ 8, 61, 12, 65 ]
[ 8, 44, 12, 34 ]

# 256944
[ 66, 3, 62, 1 ]
[ 35, 3, 46, 1 ]

# 256945
[ 61, 5, 41, 26 ]
[ 30, 5, 26, 25 ]

# 256946
[ 78, 0, 26, 15 ]
[ 32, 0, 25, 14 ]

# 256949
[ 73, 19, 56, 0 ]
[ 42, 19, 40, 0 ]

# 256951
[ 28, 85, 7, 36 ]
[ 28, 55, 6, 19 ]

# 256954
[ 20, 60, 44, 16 ]
[ 19, 30, 29, 15 ]

# 256956
[ 1, 76, 87, 7 ]
[ 1, 58, 49, 7 ]

# 256957
[ 6, 1, 17, 97 ]
[ 6, 1, 16, 51 ]

# 256960
[ 48, 0, 45, 77 ]
[ 33, 0, 30, 62 ]

# 256963
[ 2, 55, 17, 49 ]
[ 1, 24, 16, 34 ]

# 256964
[ 10, 81, 32, 34 ]
[ 10, 35, 32, 33 ]

# 256965
[ 71, 15, 38, 29 ]
[ 39, 15, 35, 14 ]

# 256966
[ 60, 16, 44, 11 ]
[ 30, 16, 29, 11 ]

# 256969
[ 93, 41, 0, 24 ]
[ 62, 25, 0, 22 ]

# 256970
[ 38, 101, 4, 42 ]
[ 38, 53, 4, 40 ]

# 256971
[ 40, 58, 39, 11 ]
[ 25, 41, 24, 11 ]

# 256972
[ 53, 5, 75, 7 ]
[ 37, 5, 45, 7 ]

# 256973
[ 29, 49, 46, 102 ]
[ 29, 39, 46, 66 ]

# 256974
[ 8, 107, 31, 39 ]
[ 8, 60, 31, 39 ]

# 256975
[ 0, 74, 54, 0 ]
[ 0, 43, 37, 0 ]

# 256976
[ 64, 39, 0, 0 ]
[ 33, 23, 0, 0 ]

# 256980
[ 34, 39, 99, 15 ]
[ 33, 39, 54, 14 ]

# 256981
[ 72, 8, 38, 46 ]
[ 42, 8, 38, 31 ]

# 256982
[ 20, 56, 63, 54 ]
[ 20, 55, 32, 38 ]

# 256984
[ 66, 88, 27, 9 ]
[ 49, 57, 27, 9 ]

# 256986
[ 42, 87, 18, 10 ]
[ 26, 57, 17, 10 ]

# 256987
[ 38, 30, 6, 77 ]
[ 38, 15, 6, 61 ]

# 256988
[ 0, 16, 40, 52 ]
[ 0, 15, 25, 21 ]

# 256989
[ 0, 15, 18, 95 ]
[ 0, 15, 17, 50 ]

# 256990
[ 25, 19, 89, 29 ]
[ 25, 19, 44, 29 ]

# 256992
[ 57, 39, 78, 0 ]
[ 39, 24, 60, 0 ]

# 256993
[ 77, 8, 72, 14 ]
[ 40, 7, 57, 14 ]

# 256998
[ 87, 9, 35, 9 ]
[ 57, 8, 19, 9 ]

# 256999
[ 33, 92, 12, 26 ]
[ 33, 47, 11, 26 ]

# 257003
[ 9, 70, 4, 14 ]
[ 9, 25, 4, 14 ]

# 257006
[ 0, 65, 10, 22 ]
[ 0, 20, 10, 22 ]

# 257009
[ 10, 88, 10, 30 ]
[ 10, 43, 10, 30 ]

# 257010
[ 101, 5, 6, 41 ]
[ 54, 5, 6, 38 ]

# 257013
[ 61, 58, 41, 15 ]
[ 31, 43, 41, 15 ]

# 257015
[ 19, 21, 45, 72 ]
[ 19, 21, 30, 41 ]

# 257016
[ 5, 46, 47, 55 ]
[ 5, 29, 29, 38 ]

# 257019
[ 67, 79, 13, 28 ]
[ 51, 49, 13, 27 ]

# 257020
[ 65, 17, 92, 24 ]
[ 49, 17, 62, 21 ]

# 257021
[ 41, 67, 4, 58 ]
[ 29, 27, 4, 43 ]

# 257022
[ 14, 58, 63, 61 ]
[ 14, 43, 47, 46 ]

# 257026
[ 64, 25, 44, 1 ]
[ 33, 25, 29, 1 ]

# 257027
[ 11, 36, 66, 58 ]
[ 11, 21, 55, 34 ]

# 257028
[ 0, 9, 30, 45 ]
[ 0, 9, 15, 15 ]

# 257030
[ 59, 25, 42, 0 ]
[ 29, 23, 26, 0 ]

# 257031
[ 90, 18, 3, 19 ]
[ 45, 18, 3, 19 ]

# 257032
[ 37, 38, 69, 45 ]
[ 35, 38, 39, 30 ]

# 257033
[ 65, 11, 61, 34 ]
[ 50, 11, 30, 34 ]

# 257034
[ 31, 25, 20, 50 ]
[ 16, 25, 20, 19 ]

# 257036
[ 38, 8, 27, 75 ]
[ 23, 8, 25, 45 ]

# 257040
[ 18, 76, 27, 0 ]
[ 18, 46, 10, 0 ]

# 257043
[ 33, 0, 57, 23 ]
[ 18, 0, 27, 23 ]

atm the test server (https://www.chess.com/4pc-test) is set to 5 points for mates/kings

you can try the analysis board and load pgn from other games

1st off thanks!  I'll look into these games above too.  

2nd you went out of your way on the chess server, again I respectfully Thank-you.

Quick question...please tell me if this makes since as I am not programmer. 

What if you setup an Analysis Board instead,  whose rules are the same as those above.  Then, couldn't we copy and paste a PGN into the board and now we can back test?  Sure it would be only one game at a time but to see the flow and how the final score changes or not would be easier.

yes, that was my point. ("load pgn from other games")

of course you can also invite 3 players and play a real game with those rules