No transitional fossils, you say??

Sort:
tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:

There are things I have read in the Bible I didn't understand until years later, As have I why would anyone at all think they had to grasp all meaning at the time of the reading? No one thinks that.  No one that I know of anyway. I think you are pushing something here to dismiss plain text that only modern man would attempt to do not the readers of the text the year it was written.  The only thing I'm 'pushing' is sound biblical interpretation.  I'm honestly not advocating anything different from what every pastor who's ever attended seminary already knows.  It's pretty basic stuff actually.  I'm kind of surprised that you're challenging it.  Maybe you're just so used to us disagreeing that you're assuming I'm saying something disagreeable.  wink.png


 

tbwp10
TerminatorC800 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

There are things I have read in the Bible I didn't understand until years later, why would anyone at all think they had to grasp all meaning at the time of the reading? I think you are pushing something here to dismiss plain text that only modern man would attempt to do not the readers of the text the year it was written.

Non-literal approaches to Genesis have been around for a long, long time. In the 3rd Century A.D., a Christian scholar, Origen, argued against a literal-historical approach to Genesis. It’s not a modern concept by any means.

That's an excellent point.  But I do want to make clear that I think it's not a difference of literal vs. non-literal interpretation, but correct interpretation.  Some things in the Bible are meant to be understood literally.  Some things are meant to be understood figuratively or symbollically.  And quite a few passages in the Bible includes elements of both.  So again, I don't think it's a question of literal vs. non-literal.  I think that's the wrong question to ask.  The first question to ask is always, "How would the original intended audience have understood it?  What would it have meant to them?"

For example, in Corinthians when Paul says there are 'lords many and gods many but to us there's only one God the Father...and Lord Jesus Christ", the church at Corinth clearly would have understood Paul to be referring to the false pagan Greco-Roman gods of that time that so pervaded and influenced everything in their society; *NOT* the erroneous, anachronistic reading of say the church of latter day saints (mormons) who claim this passage teaches that there are actually many gods and lords--but only one God and Lord of our planet--and that one day we can become gods ourselves over our own planet!

TruthMuse

I take the text as is since it was quoted by Christ, and it is quoted by others as true events. From the first Adam till Christ, from God creating the heavens and the earth and everything in them. It isn't a salvation buster as far as I'm concern, but I think it is dangerous to treat scripture as a fairy tale to get a point across when it should be taken as is.

tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:

I take the text as is since it was quoted by Christ, and it is quoted by others as true events. From the first Adam till Christ, from God creating the heavens and the earth and everything in them. It isn't a salvation buster as far as I'm concern, but I think it is dangerous to treat scripture as a fairy tale to get a point across when it should be taken as is.

Sounds like we agree then.  I don't think we should treat scripture as a fairy tale either.

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

I take the text as is since it was quoted by Christ, and it is quoted by others as true events. From the first Adam till Christ, from God creating the heavens and the earth and everything in them. It isn't a salvation buster as far as I'm concern, but I think it is dangerous to treat scripture as a fairy tale to get a point across when it should be taken as is.

Sounds like we agree then.  I don't think we should treat scripture as a fairy tale either.

I've more than likely argued with you more than anyone, and I do believe we more than likely agree more than not. We just disagree when we disagree with gusto. happy.png

tbwp10

Really?  More than anyone?  Sorry about that. But yes, when we disagree at least we do it with style.

tbwp10

My point about Genesis 1 is simply that it doesn't claim to be a modern scientific account, and if it did then it would only have meaning and relevance for modern times, which to me doesn't make sense if it's divine revelation for everyone.

TruthMuse

If there is someone else with whom I argue more, I more than likely don't think about those discussions as much I do ours when we going over a topic. I do enjoy discussing things with you and stephen_33, I find him a most agreeable person to disagree with as well. happy.png

TruthMuse

Genesis doesn't start out attempting to prove anything; it simply states, "In the beginning God," it doesn't argue the point, attempt to explain anything to make it believable; it simply states what is. Other religious books attempt to justify their existence in their text, not so books of the Bible, and why would God feel the need to either? For me, how the 66 books were put together, who wrote them, where, when, and in what lanuage is a remarkable feat. It is no small wonder why some people think there had to have been some consperiece to make the Bible say what it says with the coordination within it, while I accept the systematic theology in the text.

tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:

If there is someone else with whom I argue more, I more than likely don't think about those discussions as much I do ours when we going over a topic. I do enjoy discussing things with you and stephen_33, I find him a most agreeable person to disagree with as well.

Ditto to you.  And @stephen_33 too and also @MindWalk.  Proof that people can vehemently disagree yet still peacefully coexist.

tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:

Genesis doesn't start out attempting to prove anything; it simply states, "In the beginning God," it doesn't argue the point, attempt to explain anything to make it believable; it simply states what is. Other religious books attempt to justify their existence in their text, Are you sure?  I've heard this claim before but never seen anyone give any examples.  Did you have any specific examples in mind? not so books of the Bible, and why would God feel the need to either? Again, are you sure?  I see very clear examples of polemics in the Bible where Yahweh goes out of his way to demonstrate superiority over pagan gods.  Providing justification.  Not providing justification.  Can see either as a virtue or vice.  Seems like there's a time and place for everything For me, how the 66 books were put together, who wrote them, where, when, and in what lanuage is a remarkable feat. It is no small wonder why some people think there had to have been some consperiece You lost me here.  'Consperiece'? to make the Bible say what it says with the coordination within it, while I accept the systematic theology in the text.

 

tbwp10

That's ok.  No response necessary.  Might take us too far afield when my points were more specific (and as far as I can tell non-controversial): just like Shakespeare must be interpreted in the context of its time in order to properly understand it, so also the Bible and its individual books.

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

If there is someone else with whom I argue more, I more than likely don't think about those discussions as much I do ours when we going over a topic. I do enjoy discussing things with you and stephen_33, I find him a most agreeable person to disagree with as well.

Ditto to you.  And @stephen_33 too and also @MindWalk.  Proof that people can vehemently disagree yet still peacefully coexist.

Yes to MindWalk as well. Agree all.

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:
TruthMuse wrote:

Genesis doesn't start out attempting to prove anything; it simply states, "In the beginning God," it doesn't argue the point, attempt to explain anything to make it believable; it simply states what is. Other religious books attempt to justify their existence in their text, Are you sure?  I've heard this claim before but never seen anyone give any examples.  Did you have any specific examples in mind? not so books of the Bible, and why would God feel the need to either? Again, are you sure?  I see very clear examples of polemics in the Bible where Yahweh goes out of his way to demonstrate superiority over pagan gods.  Providing justification.  Not providing justification.  Can see either as a virtue or vice.  Seems like there's a time and place for everything For me, how the 66 books were put together, who wrote them, where, when, and in what lanuage is a remarkable feat. It is no small wonder why some people think there had to have been some consperiece You lost me here.  'Consperiece'? to make the Bible say what it says with the coordination within it, while I accept the systematic theology in the text.

 

Books in Mormonism come to mind that state they are the Word of God, but it has been decades since I looked into it, I'm a little fuzzy on it. The remarkable feat is that separated by years, distances, languages the books of the Bible stand in such a way that they are not at odds with each other even with 40 different authors and two books written by a gentile. It's a collection of documents that stand alone among the books of the world.

TruthMuse

In scripture, God speaks and does what He wills, being Sovereign He isn't beholding to us or anyone or anything. I always thought it odd a temple wasn't something He demanded until I started to grasp that nothing we could do could actually do Him justice. I am utterly dumbfounded that He cares for us when I see how badly we behave, how screwed up the world is, and while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That blows me away, hard to grasp when I see how ugly the world is, and that is just my sight; I cannot imagine His where nothing is hidden from Him, and He still loves us.

varelse1

Which is why many accept Universal Common Descent as evidence of His greatness.

TruthMuse

Many accept many things, I believe He created by the power of His Word, and with us, He got His hands dirty. I don't believe in Common Descent, but I do believe in a single Creator who did what He wanted the way He wanted when and how He wanted.

God has done a few things in this creation, for one He has set in motion the universe that we can see the natural course of things, how orderly and understandable the universe is. He moves in it from time to time to show us there is more going on in this life than just these laws that we see and use to understand the universe and its workings.