Theistic Evolution -- Should Christians consider Evolutionary Creationism?

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Elroch

There are all sorts of clear indications against a young Earth.

One for misguided people to think of is the formation of stalactites. These are formed by droplets of water with a tiny amount of dissolved limestone evaporating before they drop. As such they can only grow at a very, very low pace. It just doesn't do to send water through more rapidly, because water only evaporates at a very limited rate (this is deep underground which has a very stable temperature all year round, and certainly never gets hot).

With this understanding, some known stalactites have taken around 200,000 years to form. Radiometric dating has provided an independent estimate of their age at 190,000 years which agreement provides support for both estimates.

That's a LOT longer than some people erroneously believe the Earth to have existed. But these stalactites do exist (and they are still growing at a similar extremely slow pace).

 

Destroyer942
Elroch wrote:

There are all sorts of clear indications against a young Earth.

One for misguided people to think of is the formation of stalactites. These are formed by droplets of water with a tiny amount of dissolved limestone evaporating before they drop. As such they can only grow at a very, very low pace. It just doesn't do to send water through more rapidly, because water only evaporates at a very limited rate (this is deep underground which has a very stable temperature all year round, and certainly never gets hot).

With this understanding, some known stalactites have taken around 200,000 years to form. Radiometric dating has provided an independent estimate of their age at 190,000 years which agreement provides support for both estimates.

That's a LOT longer than some people erroneously believe the Earth to have existed. But these stalactites do exist (and they are still growing at a similar extremely slow pace).

 

 

That is also a great point that I didn't even know almost anything about. So to overturn all this evidence the 6,000 year old earth theory needs a lot of proof and so far the 4.5 billion year model is proving far more accurate in almost all branches of science. (I say almost to be nice but I can't think of an example of a branch of science that argues for a 6,000 year old earth.)

TheJamesOfAllJameses
Destroyer942 wrote:
JayHunterBrickwood wrote:

I just don't see where in the timeline of the Bible evolution could happen. Micro evolution can and has happened, but that's it.

If you change your mind about the earth being about 4.5 billion years old., you will no doubt see why evolution is a very probable theory.

Here are some things to consider:

Carbon and other isotope dating: allows us to calculate via the half life of the isotope when the earth formed. (As well as when living things like Dinosaurs lived.)

Fossil Fuels: Made up of organic matter that could only have formed over millions and millions of years.

98% of our DNA coincides with chimps, suggesting that we are very likely to have a common ancestor.

Fossils: take a very long time to form and can also be dated with isotopes and rock layers. Some of them are over 500 million years old.

Other stars, planets, and galaxies: We have learned from space travel that it is insanely difficult to for a planet to form that can sustain life. Nobody has ever witnessed a planet being formed in a matter of thousands of years.

The Universe: Considering we now know that the universe started with some sort of an explosion (often referred to as the big bang) it's reasonable to assume that this was the Beginning mentioned int the Bible. The sudden birth of matter, space, and time all at the same time which allowed all actions that we know of in this universe to even be possible.

So if humans and chimps have a common ancestor, then why did Moses write that God created Adam from the dust of the ground and Eve from his rib?

Destroyer942
JayHunterBrickwood wrote:
Destroyer942 wrote:
JayHunterBrickwood wrote:

I just don't see where in the timeline of the Bible evolution could happen. Micro evolution can and has happened, but that's it.

If you change your mind about the earth being about 4.5 billion years old., you will no doubt see why evolution is a very probable theory.

Here are some things to consider:

Carbon and other isotope dating: allows us to calculate via the half life of the isotope when the earth formed. (As well as when living things like Dinosaurs lived.)

Fossil Fuels: Made up of organic matter that could only have formed over millions and millions of years.

98% of our DNA coincides with chimps, suggesting that we are very likely to have a common ancestor.

Fossils: take a very long time to form and can also be dated with isotopes and rock layers. Some of them are over 500 million years old.

Other stars, planets, and galaxies: We have learned from space travel that it is insanely difficult to for a planet to form that can sustain life. Nobody has ever witnessed a planet being formed in a matter of thousands of years.

The Universe: Considering we now know that the universe started with some sort of an explosion (often referred to as the big bang) it's reasonable to assume that this was the Beginning mentioned int the Bible. The sudden birth of matter, space, and time all at the same time which allowed all actions that we know of in this universe to even be possible.

So if humans and chimps have a common ancestor, then why did Moses write that God created Adam from the dust of the ground and Eve from his rib?

This is where I'd imagine most atheists would end the intellectual discussion and start insulting, but all I want to ask you is to consider the possibility that these meanings are metaphorical. The thing that I always found discrediting about the Adam and Eve Story is how two people managed to populate an entire planet. A planet which is a very diverse place, and very vast as well. Imagine finding one girl and starting an entire civilization with her. You see where I'm going with this? There will be extremely low genetic variety and the children may quickly get sick and die. Besides if you look at bone structures and embryos we're rediculouslly similar to animals structurally. Even an elephant has leg and arm bones positioned in the exact same way as ours relative to each other, just some size and shape differences. So how you interpret the text that said those things I do not know. My guess would be that he meant men rose from the ground, but the Rib thing with Eve I just cannot get. In any case, there are people who know the Bible way better then I do who would be more qualified to ask for how the Bible uses metaphors or references to science. All I can tell you is that I don't think the appearing from the ground or from the rib were meant literally.

TheJamesOfAllJameses

Adam didn't appear from the ground, God made him from the ground, sculpted him even. Also, With God, all things are possible. Why did the writer of Genesis 1-5 make it sound so literal if it's a metphore? Also, if humans came from animals then why are we more special to God than other animals?

TheJamesOfAllJameses

Do you believe in a worldwide flood?

TheJamesOfAllJameses
Destroyer942 wrote:
Elroch wrote:

There are all sorts of clear indications against a young Earth.

One for misguided people to think of is the formation of stalactites. These are formed by droplets of water with a tiny amount of dissolved limestone evaporating before they drop. As such they can only grow at a very, very low pace. It just doesn't do to send water through more rapidly, because water only evaporates at a very limited rate (this is deep underground which has a very stable temperature all year round, and certainly never gets hot).

With this understanding, some known stalactites have taken around 200,000 years to form. Radiometric dating has provided an independent estimate of their age at 190,000 years which agreement provides support for both estimates.

That's a LOT longer than some people erroneously believe the Earth to have existed. But these stalactites do exist (and they are still growing at a similar extremely slow pace).

 

 

That is also a great point that I didn't even know almost anything about. So to overturn all this evidence the 6,000 year old earth theory needs a lot of proof and so far the 4.5 billion year model is proving far more accurate in almost all branches of science. (I say almost to be nice but I can't think of an example of a branch of science that argues for a 6,000 year old earth.)

Creation Scientists.

varelse1
JayHunterBrickwood wrote:

Yeah, well, I just don't think evolution is possible, because God made everything in 6, 24 hour days. He made everything, even the extinct dinosaurs we find fossilized.

A nice thought.

Unfortunately, the evidence is not supporting that.

We cannot revamp our entire Education system, based on pretty thoughts and poetry.

varelse1
JayHunterBrickwood wrote:

Sounds kinda like brainwashing, doesn't it? 

Surely you must see the irony where Evolution Deniers, who fought tooth-and-nail to keep Evolution out of schools, should today be screaming "censorship!!"

Like they have any room to talk.

TheJamesOfAllJameses

Well, they got Christianity out of the schools, and now they have evolution. Kinda seems like they are teaching a theory as science, yet they don't teach the Bible or anything else that has to do with Christianity. But public libraries can have drag queen story hour, schools can have plays about how Islam will take over the world, and anything else, but not the Bible. 

TheJamesOfAllJameses

Can you deny a theory? After all, it is just a theory. Also, why should I be made to believe in something that goes against my own beliefs? The schools are pushing their beliefs on people like me, aren't they?

All you are doing is evangelizing, just you're telling me that Evolution is right, and my beliefs are wrong, which is all Christians like me are doing by telling you Evolutionists that your beliefs are wrong and that you don't have to die and spend an eternity in the lake of fire. It's basically the same.

Destroyer942

Remember we're not disputing what happens after a person dies, we're talking about evolution specifically.

TheJamesOfAllJameses

But, you are still preaching the gospel of Evolution, which is your belief, and you're saying that my beliefs are wrong. 

Elroch

When you have to insult people by lying that they are more like yourself than they really are, you should know your position is dodgy. Science is based on the scientific method, not papal proclamation.

TheJamesOfAllJameses

I'm not insulting anyone. 

TheJamesOfAllJameses

And I'm not lying. You're saying that your beliefs are right, and I'm saying mine are.

Destroyer942

You're right, in a sense. But also evolution can be verified. Surely you wouldn't want to be like that one Pope I learned about in history who looked into the telescope pointed at Jupiter and pretended he didn't see it.(Not sure if this is a true story but even if it isn't the metaphor stands.)

TheJamesOfAllJameses

Yeah, I wouldn't be like that if evidence for something like that shot me in the face... 

TheJamesOfAllJameses
Destroyer942 wrote:

You're right, in a sense. But also evolution can be verified. Surely you wouldn't want to be like that one Pope I learned about in history who looked into the telescope pointed at Jupiter and pretended he didn't see it.(Not sure if this is a true story but even if it isn't the metaphor stands.)

So, it's in history books, yet you don't know if it's true. 

Destroyer942
JayHunterBrickwood wrote:
Destroyer942 wrote:

You're right, in a sense. But also evolution can be verified. Surely you wouldn't want to be like that one Pope I learned about in history who looked into the telescope pointed at Jupiter and pretended he didn't see it.(Not sure if this is a true story but even if it isn't the metaphor stands.)

So, it's in history books, yet you don't know if it's true. 

I just don't remember whether I actually read it in a history book or not, but I heard my teacher say it either actually happened or was a very popular rumor at the time. Regardless though, I just think it's a good example of what not to do.